The paradox of weight and the development of boxing.

[billeau2]

Its true. Rocky was the only one who broke that rule.

Louis, Holyfield and Frazier were all about 205 lbs in their prime.

Ali was 212, Foreman prob 220

Wilder came in at 209, but he's prob around 220 when he wants to as well, given he's 6 ft 7.

We have also had huge contenders forever as well.

Carnera, buddy Baer, Willard, Abe Simon... These guys were all over 250. Willard and Buddy Baer were 6 ft 7

Jeffries was also a giant if you look at him. the guy had to weigh over 250.

The thing is...depending on when we look at the trend, the big guys were never that good. jeffries was one exception. And we have to keep in mind that all these guys like Frazier, Foreman, Ali, etc, could have had different goals and put on more mass under different circumstances.

[them_apples]

Jeffries was also a giant if you look at him. the guy had to weigh over 250.

The thing is...depending on when we look at the trend, the big guys were never that good. jeffries was one exception. And we have to keep in mind that all these guys like Frazier, Foreman, Ali, etc, could have had different goals and put on more mass under different circumstances.

100p

And some did, and looked worse. Foreman got up to 270, Holyfield was well into the 220s. Alis career high was 237 if I recall. And even then these guys still didn't look as blown up as some of the guys today.

[The Old LefHook]

211-217--that's back when buggery was buggery, fellas.

[billeau2]

211-217--that's back when buggery was buggery, fellas.

By Mohammed!

There seems to be a sweet spot. At a certain point more weight becomes less benificial and more a liability.

[QueensburyRules]

By Mohammed!

There seems to be a sweet spot. At a certain point more weight becomes less benificial and more a liability.

- -We haven't hit that spot yet.

The lighter weights are mostly 2 div + come fight nite, and heavies of note almost always 6-4+ and/or 230+

Valuev 300+ as active in the first as in the 12th. Primo 260+ the same deal.

We had a pair of unrepentant lardos set the compuhoax heavy record for thrown punches previously held in the 90s by a squat 230 lber and 240 lber.

Thems just da facts, Jackie.

[billeau2]

- -We haven't hit that spot yet.

The lighter weights are mostly 2 div + come fight nite, and heavies of note almost always 6-4+ and/or 230+

Valuev 300+ as active in the first as in the 12th. Primo 260+ the same deal.

We had a pair of unrepentant lardos set the compuhoax heavy record for thrown punches previously held in the 90s by a squat 230 lber and 240 lber.

Thems just da facts, Jackie.

Yeah but why are the really hard punchers not the biggest guys? Yes there are guys who throw a lot, and are heavy, but the hard punchers are usually in the zone discussed.

[QueensburyRules]

Yeah but why are the really hard punchers not the biggest guys? Yes there are guys who throw a lot, and are heavy, but the hard punchers are usually in the zone discussed.

- -Carnera killed at least one solid hvy that like Ez Charles lightened up his punches.

Valuev KOing fighters everywhere internationally when he was young and Quick.

Growing older and slower in his championship years, he preferred to box tall eager than rage.

Willard killed two fighters.

Wlad, Vitali, Lewis, and AJ the new prototype super hvy all formadable KO artists.

And so on. It ain't rocket science knowing this.

[kafkod]

Im starting to look at the situation different: More as an idealist than a materialist. The assumption always is that because people, in general were slightly smaller, than on average today, that sports were limited by this fact. Yet to be heavyweight champ used to be a distinction that was practically unmatched. we also see big men in the division, just not generally as the best in the division. Jeffries was one exception in this case.

The fact of the matter is, men did not want to train for size. What if the IDEA had been: "Get bigger, more muscle mass, and overwhelm your opponent." Instead of the IDEA, "Come in light, strong with endurance to last and take punishment." How would this have looked? Would it have changed the way fighters looked and performed?

Here is the logic by way of a chilling example... My late father told me something I will never forget. He was in combat in the south Pacific as a Marine in the second World War. His group was one of the first to gain a position on Ija Jima. He told me that when they ran into caches of Japanese solders who had been found and killed, including those who suicided, that the AVERAGE size for a man in those Japanese troops was over 6 feet tall. We know that the Japanese sent elite Samurai family over to battle in areas where it was expected there would be a fight.

The average size of a Japanese solder, vis a vis, a Japanese citizen was about 5 feet and some inches. Obviously out of this sample of Japanese, when the most strong, viscious, cunning and military prepared members were sorted out, their stats did not reflect general measures of size.

applying the same logic to boxing, the sample of men who were able to excel, with strength, speed and technique was such that if size was such an advantage, one could find many big men in the general population. The amount of people who box well is such a small number compared to the general population, and so is a subset of people who were very strong, and very big, who boxed well. Surely such people were not so rare back then... Meaning size was not trained, nor looked at as a great advantage.

There is no doubt that modern HWs, on average, carry more mass on their frames than their counterparts from earlier eras, both muscle and fat. This is sometimes due to lazy training and overeating - think Andy Ruiz. But a lot of these big, beefy guys train very hard, and work with nutritionists, so I assume they are choosing and training to come in heavier for fights than they would have done in times past.

There is also no doubt that, on average, modern HWs are taller than their counterparts from earlier eras, so the increase in total average mass/weight is only partly explained by choice and a different emphasis in training and nutrition.

I wonder if the shorter modern HWs - guys in the 6 foot to 6 foot 3 inch height range - are deliberately training for bulk, rather than speed and mobility, because they believe they need the extra mass to compete with opponents who may be 3 to 4 inches taller than them?

Remember, 6 foot 6 inch+ HWs are common place nowadays, which wasn't the case in past eras.

[billeau2]

- -Carnera killed at least one solid hvy that like Ez Charles lightened up his punches.

Valuev KOing fighters everywhere internationally when he was young and Quick.

Growing older and slower in his championship years, he preferred to box tall eager than rage.

Willard killed two fighters.

Wlad, Vitali, Lewis, and AJ the new prototype super hvy all formadable KO artists.

And so on. It ain't rocket science knowing this.

The Carnera thing is sketchy, it might have been preceded by a Bauer Punch that did the damage.

You may not think it is rocket science but you cannot take someone's ammy record as a reason for the professional profile, do you have a way to compare such to someone like Bauer? who was a hard puncher? Bauer may not have fought much as an ammy...

Killing is one thing, Im looking at records, and what we know about the power of fighters relative to size. Its not rocket science indeed...

[billeau2]

There is no doubt that modern HWs, on average, carry more mass on their frames than their counterparts from earlier eras, both muscle and fat. This is sometimes due to lazy training and overeating - think Andy Ruiz. But a lot of these big, beefy guys train very hard, and work with nutritionists, so I assume they are choosing and training to come in heavier for fights than they would have done in times past.

There is also no doubt that, on average, modern HWs are taller than their counterparts from earlier eras, so the increase in total average mass/weight is only partly explained by choice and a different emphasis in training and nutrition.

I wonder if the shorter modern HWs - guys in the 6 foot to 6 foot 3 inch height range - are deliberately training for bulk, rather than speed and mobility, because they believe they need the extra mass to compete with opponents who may be 3 to 4 inches taller than them?

Remember, 6 foot 6 inch+ HWs are common place nowadays, which wasn't the case in past eras.

Your sense of wonder is the 10 million dollar question. Its a good one and I am thinking along those lines, in these threads...vis a vis "what are people trying to train for?"

Height is an interesting aside. I think we should separate it from mass perhaps to look at it more independently. It helps a lot... There is more of it today, and it cannot be trained for. Liston and Wilder do not have someone stretch them lol. Good point.