Who is the greatest of all time? P4P? Robinson, Leonard, Mayweather or RJJ?

[The Old LefHook]

With all factors weighted properly, Robby calculates out ahead of the others as a welter who could make that weight on the day of the fight. His defense is outstanding for an offensive fighter. The only chėnk in his armor is ring generalship, for he sometimes wants to engage in fire fights when he does not need to--a crowd pleaser, but dangerous. The other contenders mentioned all have more chėnks, by buggery, far more chėnks on their back.

[Rusty Tromboni]

When are you going tell us how Greb passes your #1 criteria of "the eye test" and how you justify your "eye test" making Lomachenko #3 All Time P4P?

That is the most pathetic thing I've ever seen. I mean gottdayummm. You can strike 2, 4, and 5 from Lomachenko, but that damn eye test of yours and "innovation" shot him all the way up to #3 huh? Somehow no word on how the no possible eye test on Greb holds him at #1. lol.

So the question we have about your eye test is.....what's wrong with your eyes? They apparently take a liking to a certain tone?


And why do I get the feeling that Robinson got a "pity vote"

Who has the sharper punching?

Who has the better footwork?

Who better avoids getting hit?

Who better controls the ring?

Who beats up on bigger men, not smaller ones?

Who is better at adjusting mid-fight?

Who is more accurate?

Who has more heart and focus?

Who is more technically sound?

I know you won't answer. You know Robinson is dog sh.it compared to Lomachenko.

But I actually appreciate your test. I am really considering moving Robinson lower still. He was a real bi.tch. Seeing him quit against joey fookin maxim. When we have footage of Canzoneri going 20 rounds with the incomparable Jimmy McLarnin. Despite McLarnin's power and size advantage, Canzoneri went 1-1.The rematch carryingthe caveat that McLarnin opnened up aa wound Canzoneri had suffered in sparring.

Canzoneri was the P4P King, until Ray showed up. Apparently, after the War, people forgot what P4P meant.

But hey, you think that fast food you eat is really food. Who can blame you for the other decisions you make?

I know I won't. Not TUH DAY!

[Rusty Tromboni]

My point is, I don't yet see an advantage to new ways of building muscle, roiding and performance. Ortiz had a beautiful physique lot of good it did him against stick man! i would have to question how much roids helped any fighter as compared to knowing the sport, keeping the body healthy (not easy) and taking care of oneself. Do you think Hopkins Roids? I dont know.

If Slappsy Maxie could use Roids, and get the beaucoups bucks modern fighters do, do you think he would have been so high-minded about not KOing opponents?

Any big puncher without roids becomes that much more lethal with them.

Look at MMAand K1. Seriously, guys who are dog sh.it are suddenly widow-makers thanks to PEDs.there's no denying their benefit.

I don't want to imply they are the best, or never lose to guys who don't abuse. But the odds are in their favor.

Look how Roy's career hit a tail spin once the spotlight was on him. He didn't even know how to cycle, or cover up his tracks. He got scared ,went cold turkey. Decided he'd always flush himself out (using an IV really IS the best way to beat most tests), and became pedestrian. Someone with naturally great timing and power shouldn't have fallen that far.

His career went from being reminiscent of Ali and Frazier to something on par with Norton and Joshua. I am not tryingto disagree with you, I just am trying to be clear in the point I hope to make. And I appreciate you giving me that opportunity. I know sometimes I don't really explain myself very clearly.

[travestyny]

Who has the sharper punching?

Who has the better footwork?

Who better avoids getting hit?

Who better controls the ring?

Who beats up on bigger men, not smaller ones?

Who is better at adjusting mid-fight?

Who is more accurate?

Who has more heart and focus?

Who is more technically sound?

I know you won't answer. You know Robinson is dog sh.it compared to Lomachenko.

But I actually appreciate your test. I am really considering moving Robinson lower still. He was a real bi.tch. Seeing him quit against joey fookin maxim. When we have footage of Canzoneri going 20 rounds with the incomparable Jimmy McLarnin. Despite McLarnin's power and size advantage, Canzoneri went 1-1.The rematch carryingthe caveat that McLarnin opnened up aa wound Canzoneri had suffered in sparring.

Canzoneri was the P4P King, until Ray showed up. Apparently, after the War, people forgot what P4P meant.

But hey, you think that fast food you eat is really food. Who can blame you for the other decisions you make?

I know I won't. Not TUH DAY!

Make the thread and stop being a pvssy


The answer is, Sugar Ray Robinson.

Make the thread so we can all get a good laugh

Matter of fact, make it a transparent poll so we can see how many people you sway to believe that Lomachenko is ahead of SRR All Time P4P

[billeau2]

If Slappsy Maxie could use Roids, and get the beaucoups bucks modern fighters do, do you think he would have been so high-minded about not KOing opponents?

Any big puncher without roids becomes that much more lethal with them.

Look at MMAand K1. Seriously, guys who are dog sh.it are suddenly widow-makers thanks to PEDs.there's no denying their benefit.

I don't want to imply they are the best, or never lose to guys who don't abuse. But the odds are in their favor.

Look how Roy's career hit a tail spin once the spotlight was on him. He didn't even know how to cycle, or cover up his tracks. He got scared ,went cold turkey. Decided he'd always flush himself out (using an IV really IS the best way to beat most tests), and became pedestrian. Someone with naturally great timing and power shouldn't have fallen that far.

His career went from being reminiscent of Ali and Frazier to something on par with Norton and Joshua. I am not tryingto disagree with you, I just am trying to be clear in the point I hope to make. And I appreciate you giving me that opportunity. I know sometimes I don't really explain myself very clearly.

Rusty, if you listen to Max Rosenbloom and still believe he was sweet lemoning his techniques then we can agree to disagree on that point. NO, I certainly do not believe he was being high minded as an excuse for lacking qualities any more than I think Max Baur was not haunted by killing at least one man in the ring, and held back because of it. I could be wrong, maybe Rosenbloom saw he didn't have that gift and went another way, and would have welcomed the ability...But when I listen to the guy and to Bauer who has some similar qualities, I don't see it.

I have yet to see proof that roids materially affect a puncher. They might, but looking at punchers I don't see it. for example, Wilder does not look to me to have the physique of a roid user, ditto for Ruiz, and both men hit hard...Wilder very hard. Now maybe they do use them in some capacity, but when I see Joshua who had a physique that looked like he used something, and now looks bereft of that physique, I don't assume that roids are a major advantage with one caveat: Medically speaking we use these substances to speed up recovery and healing of injuries.

But when we look at Toney who used them for that purpose, he does not look like someone who used them to the point where his physique changed. Sure, some fighters have done so, but has this helped them? Sometimes...Did it make Holyfield a better fighter? Im not so sure, good as Holly was, he was inconsistent and looked sharper coming up to heavy weight in certain respects. I am ambivalent about this issue.

MMA and K1? Maybe so... There are so many changes in training routine in this field though. Is it the roids per se? Is it the focus on core strength? proper strength building? Hard to say IMO.

Its ok to disagree with me, I know about as much as the next guy lol. REgarding Roy Its possible what you say is true. I would just caution that Ockham's razor might apply here: What is the simplest explanation for Roy's failure? That is the question. Is it a cycle issue with roids? is it that he never got touched before? Is it that he lost some of his natural abilities and guys could catch him? I am not going to even say because it is probably a combination. I don't see proof that roids were the major issue. how does roids affect timing? And was his power really affected?

[Rusty Tromboni]

With all factors weighted properly, Robby calculates out ahead of the others as a welter who could make that weight on the day of the fight. His defense is outstanding for an offensive fighter. The only chėnk in his armor is ring generalship, for he sometimes wants to engage in fire fights when he does not need to--a crowd pleaser, but dangerous. The other contenders mentioned all have more chėnks, by buggery, far more chėnks on their back.

Can youprovide the footage proving that?

[Rusty Tromboni]

The answer is, Sugar Ray Robinson.

Only a racist would say that. You clearly are denying what you're seeing.


Or you're just too dumb to know what you're watching.

which is it?

[travestyny]

Only a racist would say that. You clearly are denying what you're seeing.


Or you're just too dumb to know what you're watching.

which is it?

Aw, that's cute. You have to be a racist to think that SRR is higher than Lomachenko on the all time P4P list


Let's find out that you're a beacon for equality and the rest of us are racists. Did you make that thread yet? Don't forget the transparent poll! Don't back down, ass licker.

[Zaroku]

Say what?

It's the footage that YOU'RE about. Isn't the "eye test" your #1 criteria?

So now it's the "feint forgetful" routine, huh? lol.

can i get a pass.. i grw grw grew up with hard core gangstas....i \\

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZaJYDPY-YQ

[Rusty Tromboni]

Rusty, if you listen to Max Rosenbloom and still believe he was sweet lemoning his techniques then we can agree to disagree on that point. NO, I certainly do not believe he was being high minded as an excuse for lacking qualities any more than I think Max Baur was not haunted by killing at least one man in the ring, and held back because of it. I could be wrong, maybe Rosenbloom saw he didn't have that gift and went another way, and would have welcomed the ability...But when I listen to the guy and to Bauer who has some similar qualities, I don't see it.

So you're saying Maxie was NOT fighting with the cuffs on?

I guess I cannot prove otherwise.

I have yet to see proof that roids materially affect a puncher.

I don't believe you.

While there's no drug/treatment which will provide proper punching mechanics and accuracy, fighters using steroids in particular become more powerful strikers. Just like Bonds became a home-run slugger.

Apply the same to baseball, you think Ted Williams would have NOT benefited from Barry Bonds' medicine cabinet? 40 pounds heavier and more explosive - and he would NOT have been knocking more balls out of the park?

How about Montana's noodle arm? yeah, he would grow to 6'4", but he'd be firing a rocket closer to what Kaepernick threw, or am I wrong?

Same with Boxing/Martial Arts. Steroids allow fighters to be more explosive.

They might, but looking at punchers I don't see it. for example, Wilder does not look to me to have the physique of a roid user, ditto for Ruiz, and both men hit hard...Wilder very hard. Now maybe they do use them in some capacity, but when I see Joshua who had a physique that looked like he used something, and now looks bereft of that physique, I don't assume that roids are a major advantage with one caveat: Medically speaking we use these substances to speed up recovery and healing of injuries.

I really don't know what the physique of a "roid user" would be. Do you mind defining it? While we're talking about steroids, this conversation encompasses all PEDs. Steroids, TRT and HGH, which have tell-tale signs of body malformation, only show those signs were seriously misused.

Wilder's ability to pack on 10pounds, but then suddenly lose it and never regain it, is a strong suggestion that he was using.

People assume that using PEDs means using steroids to get stupid big, like Pro-Wrestlers, but that's like saying all people drive race cars because the whole point of driving is to get from one place to another as quickly as possible. Almost no one drives race cars, you don't actually even see them on the street. Sports cars are the closest thing, and what percentage of the population drives them?

Even diuretics are a useful PED. How else did Toney make it into the ring to fight at Cruiserweight? He didn't need to completely overhaul his lifestyle, he got professional consulation from a Doctor.
Don't you think Mickey Walker had those diuretics before facing Schmeling? Or Duran once he had basically eaten himself out of the Welterweight division?

I'm sorry to go on such a tangent, but I want us to be mindful of what PEDs encompass. Sometimes we still say steroids when we mean all performing-enhancement drugs. With Roy and Joshua is was mostly/entirely steroids. But again, their objective wasn't to become Triple H or The Rock.

MMA and K1? Maybe so... There are so many changes in training routine in this field though. Is it the roids per se? Is it the focus on core strength? proper strength building? Hard to say IMO.

In K1 and MMA the strikers are less refined. Simply put, Boxers have the best technique, and it works down from there. But the inverse is true in terms of effectiveness.

The fact that so many fighters in MMA oscillate between periods of great success and abysmal lows shows two things congruent with the severity of regulations shows two things:
1) It's not simply mechanics and training.
2) Even age can be defied by science.

For Boxers it's murkier because the skills are so refined. Guys like Moore and Foreman can be KO Artists as good as they ever were deep into their 40's because the had refined skills. There's no evidence Robinson scored a KO as impressive as the one he did against Fullmer earlier in his career.

That's skill.

Some dumb ass rassler such as myself going in there and KO'ing opponents in the opening seconds of the fight simply by slugging wildly... and then a few years later, when those skills should be more refined.. unable to pop a grape. That's much more conspicuous. The dude's "talent" came from a needle in the ass.

Its ok to disagree with me, I know about as much as the next guy lol. REgarding Roy Its possible what you say is true. I would just caution that Ockham's razor might apply here: What is the simplest explanation for Roy's failure? That is the question. Is it a cycle issue with roids? is it that he never got touched before? Is it that he lost some of his natural abilities and guys could catch him? I am not going to even say because it is probably a combination. I don't see proof that roids were the major issue. how does roids affect timing? And was his power really affected?

We were both teachers, so we know Ockham's razor is very much a thing of perspective. The students always see it differently than we do.

With Roy, the fact that he was in the spotlight and feeling static, he clammed up. He probably went cold turkey. Even the decision to abandon Heavyweight should tell you something. Yes, dropping all that weight to fight Tarver in such a short period of time, no less, had a negative effect on his body. But why did he do it? Why was all his power gone? Why did he never recover once he started losing?

Too many questions that aren't easily satisfied by he defenders attempts to clear away accusations.

Sorry for the looong post. Just some thoughts.