Who ducked whom: John Sullivan vs. Peter Jackson

[john l]

I think it would have been interesting to see what would have happened with a young John L vs Corbett. Corbett by most accounts was the slickest heavyweight back in the day so whether that would have translated in a win over a prime John L could be debated.Gut feeling is that Corbett would have still won.I love this area of heavyweights even if they were only from 160 lbs (Choynski & Fitzsimmons weight) and up. As for the Jackson vs Corbett fight,it was called a draw with most accounts not indicating either had an advantage. Most likely a scientific stalemate without alot of action.

John l was way past it when he fought Corbett and it still took him like 24rds or so to beat him. He also does not have a lot of other wins over top opp. In my opinion John l beats Corbett in his prime. This is obv a opinion(whether an educated one or not) because no tape exists of John L and only one of Corbett(his title losing fight with Fitz). Also although Corbett was more defensive then most in that era im not sure he really was that different, he still fought in that "bare knuckle stance" I believe it was Johnson who revolutionized defense, he was 1st to parry punches with his hands instead of blocking punches with arms.

[billeau2]

Can you prove a talented Black fighter didn't get a chance to fight the champ?

Can you prove it was because he was Black?

Can you prove that it was because, in this case, Sullivan, feared Black men?

You citing London is a classic example of opinions of the era.

The point I have clearly made is that timing was not on Jackson's side. He probably was about as good, but fell just short. Any perceived mistreatment he suffered based on his skin tone does not change those facts.

No my comments are more to point out why I would not weigh in on whether a fighter ducked another, not to say anyone was ducked. My point is that one cannot prove Sullivan's thoughts and that the most logical conclusion would not be that any fighter would "fear" another. It just is not how fighters generally think.

Edit: Its also a truism that we are at our weakest when we have to assume another's state of mind. Lawyers are not allowed to...

Oh! the other big thing...I posted to lefty about and I think it is important that when we look at Sullivan we recognize some of the hardships involved with assessing his abilities and especially his later fights. The guy was raised in one era (bare knuckle) and fought a lot of fights in another era... What made a champion was different as well. etc

London was very intresting... he was never accepted by the Gatsby crowd so to speak, and many feel that this was why he killed himself. He was also a socialist and wrote some interesting fiction about society...Most people do not know this and know him for his animal books.

[billeau2]

- -Re Satch:

Highest paid player in baseball in league with Babe Ruth thanks to his mercenary approach to team contracts.

Josh was near the Gehrig level. Now base level black players got paid less than MLB base, but they also didn't have any barnstorming restrictions like MLB...just sayin the obvious...

He probably was trying to make sure he had a few bucks around if his pension did not kick in!
Seriously that is duly noted QueenB.

[billeau2]

Three great, infallible experts. What did we do to deserve three brilliant historians? You know who they are. No need to even mention names. I will see you other lads over in the Elysian Fields private area after lunch.

It only gets better: Now that we are comparing Corbett to Sullivan and all...

Do you know what era Corbett was trained in? Bare knuckle. Do you know how many official bare knuckle bouts Corbett was in? None, or as my beautiful science teacher Mrs Jefferson used to say when she was threatening me "Zero."

So one question would be how much of an advantage does Corbet have fighting John L when gloves are worn? Then there is the matter of their age differences.

I guess what I am trying to say is when we try to look at how good Sullivan was we have to consider that he was not only the last bare Knuckle champ but most of his latter day fights were with gloves on. There is a big difference.

[travestyny]

This is you walking yourself out of the conversation I take it.

Why would I do that? I'm having a lot of fun watching how you expose your 2nd rate opinions and had to back out of your little claim with, "It was on an AOL website but but but I can't find it."

[travestyny]

Certainly, nothing is beneath you. That's a given. But maybe you should know that if you have to put words into someone else's mouth to try and remain relevant in a discussion, the discussion has already passed you by.

Would it make it better if I apologized? I am sorry I didn't notice your new lip stick. It looks FABULOUS on you!

Oh, I'm not putting words into your mouth.


You've stated as much plainly. Should I gather your quotations?

Here are some just from this thread alone. It gets even better if I take some from other threads.

Rusty Tromboni's reasons that Blacks didn't belong in the same ring as Whites.

Whites were always beating up Black people whenever Blacks were trying to take their jobs.

Blacks had to have police escorts to leave their neighborhoods.

Blacks couldn't even free themselves.

By the time you get to Tunney and Loughran they were refusing to fight Blacks because Blacks were considered inferior.

But no one dodged Blacks because they were Black.

Do your own quotations do you justice Or how about this. You can go on record right now and state that Blacks were not inferior athletes to whites.

Agreed?????



And you can also stop trying to use Tunney and paint him as a White supremacist. Unless you have some proof you want to share.

I wanted this thread to be about proof. All I'm getting from you is 2nd rate opinions.

[travestyny]

Here is a podcast with Chris Klein, author of Strong Boy: The Life and Times of John L. Sullivan, America's First Sports Hero.

Chris Klein: Yes. In the 1880s during Sullivan’s time, boxing was actually probably one of the more integrated if not the most integrated sports in America. That’s a time when baseball is becoming segregated until that would last for now 60 years until the time of Jackie Robinson. But you would find white fighters and black fighters in the ring with one gigantic exception that being for the championship bouts.

So, Sullivan certainly carried the racial biases of many Irish-Americans so that they had to begin with. And then once he gets the championship, he really feels that it’s his duty to keep a black man from ever wearing the championship belt.

So, he draws what he calls the color line and refuses to fight any black fighters once he became champion in the ring. And it appears that before he was champion that there might have been some matches that were set up and never happened. But the fact is that he never once got into the ring with an African-American or any sort of black fighter.

And later in his career, in the last couple of years, there was a fighter named Peter Jackson, he’s an average small fighter from Australia. And he was certainly among the handful of the top contenders of the day. In fact, in 1891 he fought Jim Corbett who would go on to defeat Sullivan to 61 round no contest. So we know that he was at least the match of Corbett who ends up knocking out Sullivan.

So we know that Jackson would at least have been a formidable challenger to Sullivan in the ring. But he flatly, when he invites in 1892 invites fighters to take him on, he’s specifically writes in his notice to the press that he will not fight any negro fighters and that would include Peter Jackson. So, that certainly was among the dark episodes when we take a look at the life of Sullivan.

https://www.artofmanliness.com/artic...stopher-klein/

He acknowledges that, like Queensbury told us, Sullivan was willing to fight Godfrey before the police planned to shut it down. So what changed?

According to Klein, it was getting the championship that changed things. But of course, if Rusty is correct about the refusal being about "Blacks being inferior," why would there be a need to refuse giving them a shot at the title? Hmm.

[QueensburyRules]

Hence we have a man in Jack London who supported the ethical treatment of animals, and the progressive causes of the working men, but said the most awful things about Jack Johnson. I use London because he is a perfect example. In truth we had rancounters in the press, upstanding men, and everything in between.

- -JJ was glad of London who stirred up the press and the people enough to roust Jeffries for a small fortune.

What London did that was scary was this scifi set in 1975, The Unparalleled Invasion.

Rouge China has taken over japan, Korea, Manchuria, ect and threatening to launch a 100 mil army on America.

The western powers concoct a plague that decimate the Chinese and others
In their possession before marching in to live happily ever after.

Every big country working on bio agents in case the big one ever kicks off and every terrorist trying the get their grubbies on some.

Little did London know how prescient he may prove to be.

[QueensburyRules]

Here is a podcast with Chris Klein, author of Strong Boy: The Life and Times of John L. Sullivan, America's First Sports Hero.





He acknowledges that, like Queensbury told us, Sullivan was willing to fight Godfrey before the police planned to shut it down. So what changed?

According to Klein, it was getting the championship that changed things. But of course, if Rusty is correct about the refusal being about "Blacks being inferior," why would there be a need to refuse giving them a shot at the title? Hmm.

- -Know nothing of Klein, but in the 1880s baseball had some integration depending on the owners, but that changed when the MLB formed in 1903.

A few of the owners would try and sneak a black player in by disguising him as a Cuban, ect, but the ruse never worked. However white players would barnstorm against black players that were very popular in the off season.

Babe got so popular the commish suspend him with specific rules that cut out most of it, but they could still play each other in Cuba, Mex, ect.

Trivia: Ty Cobb always savaged by the media somewhere around 1930 was asked to throw out the first pitch of a new black Chicago team, so things were not so black and white as the usual suspects would have to believe.

[Anthony342]

- -Know nothing of Klein, but in the 1880s baseball had some integration depending on the owners, but that changed when the MLB formed in 1903.

A few of the owners would try and sneak a black player in by disguising him as a Cuban, ect, but the ruse never worked. However white players would barnstorm against black players that were very popular in the off season.

Babe got so popular the commish suspend him with specific rules that cut out most of it, but they could still play each other in Cuba, Mex, ect.

Trivia: Ty Cobb always savaged by the media somewhere around 1930 was asked to throw out the first pitch of a new black Chicago team, so things were not so black and white as the usual suspects would have to believe.

That must have been what inspired the scenes in the TV movie Long Gone when the baseball manager brings in a new power hitter whose black in 1957 Miami and tells the owner he's Venezuelan.