Who ducked whom: John Sullivan vs. Peter Jackson

[travestyny]

Rusty actually believes that there was a colorline and separate baseball leagues because black athletes were inferior.


Unbelievable.

[billeau2]

[QUOTE=QueensburyRules;19971600]- -Your link is a gibberish of broken sentences and multiple random punctuations on my iPhone.

Could you copy and paste the text?

I will say Sully fought once in 88 and then inactive for 4 yr to Corbett.

Jackson started 88 with a loss in Oz but ended up in the SF AC of Sullys 88 bout.

Was Sully ducking Jackson and Corbett those 4 years? At Corbett/Sully fight, months before Jackson was fighting in England.

Jackson returned for a few bouts and dropped out for 6 years. He and Sully ducking each other?

And now ducking New champ Corbett?

My point is the ducking term in boxing mostly overused by the unwashed public.[QUOTE]

I would have to agree with the bolded. For a couple of reasons: First people use it to the point where it loses all impetus...Like when burocrats use the word "accountability."

Also, the mindset of most fighters is such that they themselves are seldom afraid. The reality being, people in their camp are afraid of various things. Fighters are also generally the last people to recognize their twilight years approaching.

I have no idea about Sully and Jackson but it is good posting hygiene for lack of a better term, to use the term "ducking" sparingly at best.

[travestyny]

I would have to agree with the bolded. For a couple of reasons: First people use it to the point where it loses all impetus...Like when burocrats use the word "accountability."

Also, the mindset of most fighters is such that they themselves are seldom afraid. The reality being, people in their camp are afraid of various things. Fighters are also generally the last people to recognize their twilight years approaching.

I have no idea about Sully and Jackson but it is good posting hygiene for lack of a better term, to use the term "ducking" sparingly at best.

Sorry, maybe I used the wrong term. My point wasn't to be disparaging toward either fighter. I just wanted to understand what Rusty was talking about.

[billeau2]

Sorry, maybe I used the wrong term. My point wasn't to be disparaging toward either fighter. I just wanted to understand what Rusty was talking about.

I royally screwed that post up above lol. I can't figure out why it did not quote properly.

Its kind of a catch22 isn't it? Your a talented Black fighter and because of the color line you can't just get a fight with the champ, yet because you are limited with whom you can fight, you are accused of being a "place holder." I think this is a problem Jackson and other's faced.

History goes back and fourth...Satchel Page, who played virtually all his golden years in the Black baseball leagues, either played with the most talented men, never given the chance to make the kind of money that white players made, or, played with men who could not compete and functioned as a farm system of sorts...one where one could never advance.

Lucky for us we have guys like Paige who prove that even at his oldest he could pitch marvelously. We can know that the quality of this league was superb. But more to the point? I think like any other structure, you had great players, good players and fair players. The truth is always somewhere in between the wide road curbs of speculation.

But it occured to me while reading your exchange with the Trombone, that there was this catch 22 for Black Fighters. See to me? I think that a fighter is a fighter... I know that as one trained by fighters and who had to be a fighter for a while as well, while never really being that sort... When dealing with challenges, of which I had to deal with...when dealing with open fighting and letting anyone participate...You can never be scared.

So I am imagining these great fighters we speak of, and thinking to myself, would a man like johnson who was so self assured, fear any challenge? I think these men had big ears! Big ears that were whispered into and told certain things...Things like "You don't want to fight that _____." Then the fighter with that phrase can see his potential adversary as less than him and disregard the challenge. Of course this is a shame. Of course the press, men like Jack London who was progressive in so many ways, should have known this was low, a child's way of dealing...

But they didn't and it is that middle road again. Hence we have a man in Jack London who supported the ethical treatment of animals, and the progressive causes of the working men, but said the most awful things about Jack Johnson. I use London because he is a perfect example. In truth we had rancounters in the press, upstanding men, and everything in between.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Some would say he fought Corbett to a draw, going 61 rounds, and 2 fights later Corbett KOed Sully. So if you are trying to make comparisons based on who they fought, I think you are going the wrong way, buddy.

He never positioned himself to be the best heavyweight....but how could he when the champion refused to fight him by drawing the color line. Isn't that what you're saying?

So you agree that Sullivan drew the color line on Peter Jackson then, right?


By the way, I guess you never heard of Willie Mays. Hank Aaron. Barry Bonds. Yea, never heard of them, right?

You try far too hard to try to prove blacks are not good athletes, and you fall flat on your face every time. Be careful!

This is you walking yourself out of the conversation I take it.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Rusty actually believes that there was a colorline and separate baseball leagues because black athletes were inferior.


Unbelievable.

Certainly, nothing is beneath you. That's a given. But maybe you should know that if you have to put words into someone else's mouth to try and remain relevant in a discussion, the discussion has already passed you by.

Would it make it better if I apologized? I am sorry I didn't notice your new lip stick. It looks FABULOUS on you!

[Rusty Tromboni]

Its kind of a catch22 isn't it? Your a talented Black fighter and because of the color line you can't just get a fight with the champ, yet because you are limited with whom you can fight, you are accused of being a "place holder." I think this is a problem Jackson and other's faced.
.

Can you prove a talented Black fighter didn't get a chance to fight the champ?

Can you prove it was because he was Black?

Can you prove that it was because, in this case, Sullivan, feared Black men?

You citing London is a classic example of opinions of the era.

The point I have clearly made is that timing was not on Jackson's side. He probably was about as good, but fell just short. Any perceived mistreatment he suffered based on his skin tone does not change those facts.

[The Old LefHook]

Three great, infallible experts. What did we do to deserve three brilliant historians? You know who they are. No need to even mention names. I will see you other lads over in the Elysian Fields private area after lunch.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I will see you other lads over in the Elysian Fields private area after lunch.

To discuss the "publicity machines", no doubt.

Sweet reply, BTW. Good to know you're not butt-hurt.

[QueensburyRules]

I royally screwed that post up above lol. I can't figure out why it did not quote properly.

Its kind of a catch22 isn't it? Your a talented Black fighter and because of the color line you can't just get a fight with the champ, yet because you are limited with whom you can fight, you are accused of being a "place holder." I think this is a problem Jackson and other's faced.

History goes back and fourth...Satchel Page, who played virtually all his golden years in the Black baseball leagues, either played with the most talented men, never given the chance to make the kind of money that white players made, or, played with men who could not compete and functioned as a farm system of sorts...one where one could never advance.

Lucky for us we have guys like Paige who prove that even at his oldest he could pitch marvelously. We can know that the quality of this league was superb. But more to the point? I think like any other structure, you had great players, good players and fair players. The truth is always somewhere in between the wide road curbs of speculation.

But it occured to me while reading your exchange with the Trombone, that there was this catch 22 for Black Fighters. See to me? I think that a fighter is a fighter... I know that as one trained by fighters and who had to be a fighter for a while as well, while never really being that sort... When dealing with challenges, of which I had to deal with...when dealing with open fighting and letting anyone participate...You can never be scared.

So I am imagining these great fighters we speak of, and thinking to myself, would a man like johnson who was so self assured, fear any challenge? I think these men had big ears! Big ears that were whispered into and told certain things...Things like "You don't want to fight that _____." Then the fighter with that phrase can see his potential adversary as less than him and disregard the challenge. Of course this is a shame. Of course the press, men like Jack London who was progressive in so many ways, should have known this was low, a child's way of dealing...

But they didn't and it is that middle road again. Hence we have a man in Jack London who supported the ethical treatment of animals, and the progressive causes of the working men, but said the most awful things about Jack Johnson. I use London because he is a perfect example. In truth we had rancounters in the press, upstanding men, and everything in between.

- -Re Satch:

Highest paid player in baseball in league with Babe Ruth thanks to his mercenary approach to team contracts.

Josh was near the Gehrig level. Now base level black players got paid less than MLB base, but they also didn't have any barnstorming restrictions like MLB...just sayin the obvious...