Were Patterson and Ingo the worst heavyweight champs ever ?

[Ben Bolt]

Perhaps I'm too soft-heartened, but I don't like to discuss the worst.
These guys sacrificed a lot to get there.
Definitely more, than I'm willing to do.
And they will be remembered. I won't.

[QueensburyRules]

2 points-

1. Dempsey himself started out at welter.

- -Never heard Jack in his Kid Blackie days weighing less than 160

2 yr after his pro debut is the earliest boxrec wt listed against John Lester Johnson @181, a hvywt.

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/9009

[Dempsey19]

- -Never heard Jack in his Kid Blackie days weighing less than 160

2 yr after his pro debut is the earliest boxrec wt listed against John Lester Johnson @181, a hvywt.

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/9009

From Wikipedia-

"The promoter became violently angry and "sailed into us, barehanded", threatening to stop the fight.[15] Copelin himself, who outweighed Dempsey by 20 lbs. (165 to 145) upon seeing Dempsey's small stature in the ring, warned the promoter, "I might kill that skinny guy." '

[Rusty Tromboni]

If they don't it's because of quality. The size difference between 198 pound 6'0" Patterson and 204 pound 6'0" is definitely not enough to merit a higher weight division. Mike Tyson beat men who outweighed him as easily as Liston beat Patterson.

Do you think Dempsey and Willard belong in the same ring together ? Using Dempsey as an example you can say the smaller man has an advantage. Louis, Dempsey and Ali all had their toughest fights against smaller men. Arguably the Klitschkos too. Chris Byrd and Corrie Sanders are easily their best wins by a country mile and they both beat the other Klitschko brother !

If you see, Chris Byrd and Wlad 1, both men evenly matched, blow for blow, do you think that thse 2 men don't belong in a ring together ?

Yeah, Patterson shouldn't have been walking around at 200 pounds.

One guy sweat himself down, and the other guy beefed himself up. You're not going to find anyone who disputes that.

You can definitely argue that increasing size can have diminishing results. But as time passes, big men are getting better.

Here in 2019, have you ever seen a Heavyweight as good as Fury?

Would it be fair to put Dempsey, or Ali or Tyson in the ring with him?

It all goes to show that just because smaller men can beat bigger men, it doesn't mean they will. Some big men DO carry enough talent that size DOES matter.

I really can't look at Patterson or Quarry and say that they were the same size as their contemporaries. I can say that their lack of size definitely limited their careers so as to not properly reflect their actual level of talent and ability.

[QueensburyRules]

From Wikipedia-

"The promoter became violently angry and "sailed into us, barehanded", threatening to stop the fight.[15] Copelin himself, who outweighed Dempsey by 20 lbs. (165 to 145) upon seeing Dempsey's small stature in the ring, warned the promoter, "I might kill that skinny guy." '

- -Here is Jack's official record:

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/9009

Jacks weight is not listed as all of his earliest fights were not, this still being the immediate aftermath of the wild, untamed West era.

7 months later in NY he weighs in at 185. That despite the dubious weights of boxing that persists to this day, you have him gaining 40 lbs despite him having zero $$$ and to stand in soup lines and sleeping on park benches like the rest of the homeless bums.

I'd say your source relied on hearsay, ie rumor rather than anything factual.

[Rusty Tromboni]

The Bolded: Yes that is the "catch." so to speak. It seems that there is a certain limit to how much size helps a person before it becomes prohibitive. Its similar to the reasons why a very well muscled individual, in incredible physical condition should, hypothetically be able to "move" his body proportionally to a small guy with a light build when it comes to running...But we know that this is not so when it comes to running long distances.

Great points I agree... In a way if a guy can fight lighter weight, punchers, and other assorted technically gifted guys at middle, he should be able to grow into heavyweight and make it work. Tunney showed this...He was able to fight competitively with Greb on several occasions. He then was able to of course fight Dempsey. With Michael Spinks, one has to appreciate certain mitigating factors. Tyson, given his record and his later performance was not considered a great heavy by many. However as has been said here and is known, Iron Mike matches up well against any heavyweight in history.

So I cut Spinks some slack with that fight. NO matter how good you were, Tyson at his sweet spot could, like Dempsey, end it really quickly if you could not figure out how to back him up.

Yeah, I don't hold the loss against Spinks. But I do believe the chickens had come home to roost. I don't think he (or Larry) were the best Heavyweights in the world when they were fighting for the belt. Holmes wanted to break Marciano's record, but had been slipping. He assumed Spinks would be easy pickings... Spinks exploited his carelessness, and ran with it.

In earlier decades I highly doubt Spinks would have made much of a splash at Light Heavyweight, if he ever competed there at all. He would have always been a Heavyweight, and probably a good one.

I just don't think his record is that great. And while he's wily and dangerous, I am not seeing anything groundbreaking. He's like a pop band that gets lots of radio play, tours regularly, and can cite high record sales, but is no ones favorite band. I mean, there really are people who listen to Train and Nickelback. Remember how you had to be that good to get on the radio in thee 80's and most of the 90's? Remember how you had to be fookin epic to get on the radio in the 70's?
I put Spinks more on the level of a Holyfield than I do a Ray Leonard.

[Dempsey19]

Yeah, I don't hold the loss against Spinks. But I do believe the chickens had come home to roost. I don't think he (or Larry) were the best Heavyweights in the world when they were fighting for the belt. Holmes wanted to break Marciano's record, but had been slipping. He assumed Spinks would be easy pickings... Spinks exploited his carelessness, and ran with it.

In earlier decades I highly doubt Spinks would have made much of a splash at Light Heavyweight, if he ever competed there at all. He would have always been a Heavyweight, and probably a good one.

I just don't think his record is that great. And while he's wily and dangerous, I am not seeing anything groundbreaking. He's like a pop band that gets lots of radio play, tours regularly, and can cite high record sales, but is no ones favorite band. I mean, there really are people who listen to Train and Nickelback. Remember how you had to be that good to get on the radio in thee 80's and most of the 90's? Remember how you had to be fookin epic to get on the radio in the 70's?
I put Spinks more on the level of a Holyfield than I do a Ray Leonard.

There are many P4P lists that rate Holyfield higher than Ray Leonard- Boxrec for one.

[Dempsey19]

Yeah, Patterson shouldn't have been walking around at 200 pounds.

One guy sweat himself down, and the other guy beefed himself up. You're not going to find anyone who disputes that.

You can definitely argue that increasing size can have diminishing results. But as time passes, big men are getting better.

Here in 2019, have you ever seen a Heavyweight as good as Fury?

Would it be fair to put Dempsey, or Ali or Tyson in the ring with him?

It all goes to show that just because smaller men can beat bigger men, it doesn't mean they will. Some big men DO carry enough talent that size DOES matter.

I really can't look at Patterson or Quarry and say that they were the same size as their contemporaries. I can say that their lack of size definitely limited their careers so as to not properly reflect their actual level of talent and ability.

If the blown-up cruiserweight Deontay Wilder was well schooled, I think he'd beat Fury fairly easily.

[billeau2]

Yeah, I don't hold the loss against Spinks. But I do believe the chickens had come home to roost. I don't think he (or Larry) were the best Heavyweights in the world when they were fighting for the belt. Holmes wanted to break Marciano's record, but had been slipping. He assumed Spinks would be easy pickings... Spinks exploited his carelessness, and ran with it.

In earlier decades I highly doubt Spinks would have made much of a splash at Light Heavyweight, if he ever competed there at all. He would have always been a Heavyweight, and probably a good one.

I just don't think his record is that great. And while he's wily and dangerous, I am not seeing anything groundbreaking. He's like a pop band that gets lots of radio play, tours regularly, and can cite high record sales, but is no ones favorite band. I mean, there really are people who listen to Train and Nickelback. Remember how you had to be that good to get on the radio in thee 80's and most of the 90's? Remember how you had to be fookin epic to get on the radio in the 70's?
I put Spinks more on the level of a Holyfield than I do a Ray Leonard.

I love the radio analogy...Lets not even forget that in the 70's even the most pop tune was arrianged, had brass instruments usually, etc. My dear departed Dad who was a musician...when I was a kid could actually relate to something I liked as a kid... He had played Baritone horn for the New York Philamonic so he was world class, and I remember as a kid playing for him a commodores tune and the theme from swat. I can't imagine playing something on the radio now if he was still with us lol.

Spinks like a lot of fighters has been pulled to and from the tides of the historical dialectic. I can remember as a fighter when he was a boxer's name...kind of like how people pull out Burley's name, most of whom probably never watched the bit of footage that actually shows Burley in action... Then when light heavies come up of course...which is a division I think it is hard to understand.

Let me illustrate this point of the division being inscrutible with an example: Lets take two fighters who fought it and are highly regarded by historians: Max Rosenbloom and Gene Tunney. Rosenbloom, aside from beating Nova, who at the time of the fight may not have even been a heavyweight, Maxie reigned supreme in that division. Tunney on the other hand, was a guy who could be a heavyweight...I would agree with you that if he kept fighting it would have been a natural exchange. Very different kind of fighters in terms of trajectory.

So when we look at Spinks the question naturally arises as to what was his trajectory? Floyd is another example ... It is obvious that he was greatest at 130ish and not at 150ish and above. Was Spinks great because he beat Holmes? I would tend to agree with you on the slippage but I also think this happens a lot in the fight game. You have to be a hell of a boxer to beat Holmes that is for sure...Or is Spinks great because of the great fighters like Qami and Mustafa that he beat?

I see Spinks as really being balanced in this respect: He beat some heavyweights up... including of course Holmes and Cooney and had some decent wins against two sluggers Qami and Mustafa. Here is the problem: You have to either be lucky enough to get a fight against a great in a division where greats are limited, or you have to beat a great heavyweight.

Tunney had Greb before he ever fought Dempsey, Maxi had a whole lotta fights! enough to have fought many great fighters in the division, coming through the division, etc... Spinks did not have that.

The other thing about Spinks is that he is the consumate boxer puncher... He makes everything look natural, with nothing standing out. He had decent power, but not exceptional, was an accurate puncher, but not on the level of someone like Ward, or Fury... He had decent feet, but not the raw athletic ability of a Roy Jones, who would have been an interesting fight for the Jinx!

Michael Moore to me is similar in some respects. the Michael Moore who beat Holly the first time? I would have put against any top light heavy and expected a competative fight. But what exactly stands out with Moore? Maybe accurate combo punching....Maybe. Like Spinks its just being well rounded and having boxing wisdom and the right chops.

Ultimately I could see arguments for putting spinks about where Holly is on the scale of accomplishments.

[Dempsey19]

Yeah, Patterson shouldn't have been walking around at 200 pounds.

One guy sweat himself down, and the other guy beefed himself up. You're not going to find anyone who disputes that.

Corrie Sanders was really a cruiserweight who ate his way to 220 and the Klitschkos are 270- pounders who cut to 240.

At the end of the day, if you take the 195 pound version of Deontay Wilder in his early 20s and give him the same amount of skill as Fury then I honestly do not see how Fury, for all of his 260 pounds, will have any chance at all.