Were Patterson and Ingo the worst heavyweight champs ever ?

[TBear]

Most of those guys were much greater than Siarhei Liakhovich, Charles Martin and Sultan Ibragimov.

[Rusty Tromboni]

From Wikipedia-

"The promoter became violently angry and "sailed into us, barehanded", threatening to stop the fight.[15] Copelin himself, who outweighed Dempsey by 20 lbs. (165 to 145) upon seeing Dempsey's small stature in the ring, warned the promoter, "I might kill that skinny guy." '

And probably when he was born he didn't weight any more than 10 pounds... if even close to that.


Look, fighters grow as the mature... just like everyone else. The point is, eventually, a person stops growing.

If you want to argue that w/ modern training, medicine and diet, that we could bulk up fighters even more, OK. But that has its limits too. All the HGH Manny took did not make him Tyson Fury, right?

Liston drained himself down, like Louis, to off-set his heavy feet. Louis and Liston could be out-maneuvered by the smaller heavyweights. Still, the packed the punch and strength to cut down much bigger, less athletic men than themselves.

Patterson, as Billeau had pointed out in another thread, wasn't capable fighting off the backfoot. He came forward. That doesn't work against bigger men who can match your athelticism... or in the case of Douglas, simply hold it together until you exhaust yourself.

Sure, Frank Bruno is a sucker for the peekabo style, but a guy like Liston, who can bounce bullets off his chin and juggle humming birds, is going to take everything you got and land on you at will.

If Patterson fought like Ray Leonard, he might have had a chance. Hell, Pastrano-Liston would be a fun fight to watch. Betting might be all over the place.


I know you can find examples of small guys beating big guys. But look at MMA, how did Royce Gracie do against Sakuraba.. or against Matt Hughes? A whole lot worse than he did against Dan Severn.
As the Wrestler got smaller and worse, his jujitsu skills got better. Suddenly, when Gracie lost the edge in skill, other factors came into play. It's the same in Boxing.

- -Here is Jack's official record:

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/9009

Jacks weight is not listed as all of his earliest fights were not, this still being the immediate aftermath of the wild, untamed West era.

7 months later in NY he weighs in at 185. That despite the dubious weights of boxing that persists to this day, you have him gaining 40 lbs despite him having zero $$$ and to stand in soup lines and sleeping on park benches like the rest of the homeless bums.

I'd say your source relied on hearsay, ie rumor rather than anything factual.

Good post.

I suspect Dempsey, secretly, is conducting this fiasco simply to bring us together.

It feels like one of the movies my sisters or daughters would watch.

[billeau2]

And probably when he was born he didn't weight any more than 10 pounds... if even close to that.


Look, fighters grow as the mature... just like everyone else. The point is, eventually, a person stops growing.

If you want to argue that w/ modern training, medicine and diet, that we could bulk up fighters even more, OK. But that has its limits too. All the HGH Manny took did not make him Tyson Fury, right?

Liston drained himself down, like Louis, to off-set his heavy feet. Louis and Liston could be out-maneuvered by the smaller heavyweights. Still, the packed the punch and strength to cut down much bigger, less athletic men than themselves.

Patterson, as Billeau had pointed out in another thread, wasn't capable fighting off the backfoot. He came forward. That doesn't work against bigger men who can match your athelticism... or in the case of Douglas, simply hold it together until you exhaust yourself.

Sure, Frank Bruno is a sucker for the peekabo style, but a guy like Liston, who can bounce bullets off his chin and juggle humming birds, is going to take everything you got and land on you at will.

If Patterson fought like Ray Leonard, he might have had a chance. Hell, Pastrano-Liston would be a fun fight to watch. Betting might be all over the place.


I know you can find examples of small guys beating big guys. But look at MMA, how did Royce Gracie do against Sakuraba.. or against Matt Hughes? A whole lot worse than he did against Dan Severn.
As the Wrestler got smaller and worse, his jujitsu skills got better. Suddenly, when Gracie lost the edge in skill, other factors came into play. It's the same in Boxing.



Good post.

I suspect Dempsey, secretly, is conducting this fiasco simply to bring us together.

It feels like one of the movies my sisters or daughters would watch.

The MMA is a great example. There is a tendency for people to reason from abstractions when a lack of experience leaves a lack of conclusive proof. Again, I will use experience here and describe the strongest individual I ever trained with. His size and build was around just under 200 at most, maybe less. He looked like a freakin Scandinavian knight. Long and lean, but not skinny...Big upper body and thinner legs, which did not stop him from kicking like a mule.

This guy was just amazingly strong and he had excellent technique. He was a cop in Oakland. I can only say this from training guys who were over 220 in MMA, and other such big guys who fought professionally in the first such sanctioned events in the Bay Area...Held in San Francisco (very proud of that fact being I had taught some of these guys my area and was treated very nicely lol). "Robocop" as he was called would have murdered any one of these guys in a random situation...He, like myself was not a ring fighter. And Robocop was much much stronger physically.

So here was a guy who was around 190ish and probably less...who was physically much stronger than heavyweights of the new era...guys who could carry 220-240 and not look fat because in MMA you cannot be out of shape...

With that said? I can imagine guys like Marciano and Dempsey measuring up to the same way. Robocop hit so damn hard that we used to wear foam padding to really hit and he could still hurt you through the padding... His grip on his chokes? Don't even want to go there.

Im using him as an example because most guys at 190 are not as strong as guys at 240...Dempsey, Marciano, etc were not most guys! My experience tells me that some of the smaller heavyweights (not all of them) were very strong... Marciano could hit into the foam padding like this guy could, ditto for Dempsey. If someone had asked about robocop in out dojo someone would talk about how hard he hit...they say the same thing about Marciano and Dempsey among others...

Weight is one component of size and size is one component of strength. People who have a lot pf physical strength can offset weight.

[Lomadeaux]

This forum is 100% certified dog s*#t....

[Dempsey19]

And probably when he was born he didn't weight any more than 10 pounds... if even close to that.


Look, fighters grow as the mature... just like everyone else. The point is, eventually, a person stops growing.

If you want to argue that w/ modern training, medicine and diet, that we could bulk up fighters even more, OK. But that has its limits too. All the HGH Manny took did not make him Tyson Fury, right?

Liston drained himself down, like Louis, to off-set his heavy feet. Louis and Liston could be out-maneuvered by the smaller heavyweights. Still, the packed the punch and strength to cut down much bigger, less athletic men than themselves.

Patterson, as Billeau had pointed out in another thread, wasn't capable fighting off the backfoot. He came forward. That doesn't work against bigger men who can match your athelticism... or in the case of Douglas, simply hold it together until you exhaust yourself.

Sure, Frank Bruno is a sucker for the peekabo style, but a guy like Liston, who can bounce bullets off his chin and juggle humming birds, is going to take everything you got and land on you at will.

If Patterson fought like Ray Leonard, he might have had a chance. Hell, Pastrano-Liston would be a fun fight to watch. Betting might be all over the place.


I know you can find examples of small guys beating big guys. But look at MMA, how did Royce Gracie do against Sakuraba.. or against Matt Hughes? A whole lot worse than he did against Dan Severn.
As the Wrestler got smaller and worse, his jujitsu skills got better. Suddenly, when Gracie lost the edge in skill, other factors came into play. It's the same in Boxing.



Good post.

I suspect Dempsey, secretly, is conducting this fiasco simply to bring us together.

It feels like one of the movies my sisters or daughters would watch.

1. I have better things to do in life.

2. I never even knew that the 2 of you had any enmity with each other. To be honest Queenie’s posts have recently devolved so deeply into ye olde English that I have stopped understanding them and so I’m not really sure what he thinks of anything.

3. Size doesn’t always matter in MMA. Look at the Shamrock brothers (Frank is a good example of a Marciano-sized man having success against big 200+ pound men). Look at Stipe Miocic. Ray Mercer. Cain Velasquez. Bas Rutten. And my favourite MMA fighter- Amanda Nunes.

At the end of the day, Fedor Emilianenko was only really a fat middleweight and we have yet to see a human being who could beat him in a cage (except perhaps some pro boxers who have wrestling experience or at least know how to avoid a takedown).

[Dempsey19]

The MMA is a great example. There is a tendency for people to reason from abstractions when a lack of experience leaves a lack of conclusive proof. Again, I will use experience here and describe the strongest individual I ever trained with. His size and build was around just under 200 at most, maybe less. He looked like a freakin Scandinavian knight. Long and lean, but not skinny...Big upper body and thinner legs, which did not stop him from kicking like a mule.

This guy was just amazingly strong and he had excellent technique. He was a cop in Oakland. I can only say this from training guys who were over 220 in MMA, and other such big guys who fought professionally in the first such sanctioned events in the Bay Area...Held in San Francisco (very proud of that fact being I had taught some of these guys my area and was treated very nicely lol). "Robocop" as he was called would have murdered any one of these guys in a random situation...He, like myself was not a ring fighter. And Robocop was much much stronger physically.

So here was a guy who was around 190ish and probably less...who was physically much stronger than heavyweights of the new era...guys who could carry 220-240 and not look fat because in MMA you cannot be out of shape...

With that said? I can imagine guys like Marciano and Dempsey measuring up to the same way. Robocop hit so damn hard that we used to wear foam padding to really hit and he could still hurt you through the padding... His grip on his chokes? Don't even want to go there.

Im using him as an example because most guys at 190 are not as strong as guys at 240...Dempsey, Marciano, etc were not most guys! My experience tells me that some of the smaller heavyweights (not all of them) were very strong... Marciano could hit into the foam padding like this guy could, ditto for Dempsey. If someone had asked about robocop in out dojo someone would talk about how hard he hit...they say the same thing about Marciano and Dempsey among others...

Weight is one component of size and size is one component of strength. People who have a lot pf physical strength can offset weight.

190+ pounds is definitely big enough for heavyweight. You can even weigh in with clothes and full pockets after drinking a lot of water and having a big meal and not taking a s**t and make the 200 pound minimum weight limit.

[MaxT]

190+ pounds is definitely big enough for heavyweight. You can even weigh in with clothes and full pockets after drinking a lot of water and having a big meal and not taking a s**t and make the 200 pound minimum weight limit.

Moreover, with current weightin rules (weighin 24-36 hours before fight) ANY heavyweight lighter than 100 kg can easily make that limit.

Thus heawiveight is reserved for 110-115 kg behemoths.

Thats why we do not see 95-100 kg heavies anymore. Tipical heavy nowadays is 105 kg at least.

[MaxT]

Most of those guys were much greater than Siarhei Liakhovich, Charles Martin and Sultan Ibragimov.

The was many weak champins in last few years.

Ibragimov was pretty good in term of boxing ability - fast hands, fast feet, good reflexes.

He have different problems: to small (basicaly like Jerry Qarry - he clearly no 6'2'', more like 6' with 73'' reach) and overveight (even at 100 kg he was kinda fat) and with weak chin.

Siarhei Liakhovich is totaly average - tall, but short-handed fat guy, with no real punch power and tendensy to trade punches.
He os more like Lamon Brewster in skils, but without KO punch and champion heart.

Oleg Maskaev was another weak champion. Good boxer, basicaly of Ron Lyle caliber (good defence, timing, conter-punching), but SLOW (Valuev-like speed in average body) and WORST jaw ever.

Valuev, John Ruis and Chagaev were limited fightes with significant gaps in style.

Martin and Stevern is disgrace of boxing. Unlike aforementioned white guys they have the ability to box and gight, all the tools needed, but they constantly luck the motivation to train and fight properly.

Brewster deserve more respect than any other weak champions. Despite been just a in-shape version of Lionel Butler he became champin on determination alone.

[Dempsey19]

Moreover, with current weightin rules (weighin 24-36 hours before fight) ANY heavyweight lighter than 100 kg can easily make that limit.

Thus heawiveight is reserved for 110-115 kg behemoths.

Thats why we do not see 95-100 kg heavies anymore. Tipical heavy nowadays is 105 kg at least.

I’m actually saying the opposite.

[QueensburyRules]

The was many weak champins in last few years.

Ibragimov was pretty good in term of boxing ability - fast hands, fast feet, good reflexes.

He have different problems: to small (basicaly like Jerry Qarry - he clearly no 6'2'', more like 6' with 73'' reach) and overveight (even at 100 kg he was kinda fat.

Brewster deserve more respect than any other weak champions. Despite been just a in-shape version of Lionel Butler he became champin on determination alone.

- -You falling into typical myopic body stereotyping.

Ibrag not a "cut" body type at 10% body fat, but he had all those assets you mentioned, enough for Wlad to holster his right lest he get countered, a testament to his best left hand in the history of boxing.

As to Brewster, guy couldn't box his way out of a paper bag, but had one of the great Hail Mary KO punches.

But not one that he landed on Wlad.

The bookies had suspended betting the week before because of a su****ious flood of Brit $$$ placed on Brewster who had zero accomplishments and no future save he was signed to DKing.

Wlad dominated such the Roy Jones was screaming to stop the fight. The few rights Wlad landed dropped Brewster 2x, but the 2nd disallowed because Brewster tackled Wlad around the legs on the way down, typical of hometown favoritism.

The fight had been a jabbing walk in the park for Wlad as Manny debuted his new grab and manhandle any close encounters, but all of a sudden Wlad could barely hold his hands up much less generate an offense, so Brewster let's loose but still can't quite catch up to the retreating Wlad who is bouncing off the ropes as the bell sounds to fall flat on his face too weak to even move, a clear sign of a drugging by some kinda date **** drug the illicit drug market churns out yearly.

Be clear, Manny and Vitali backed me on this later as they pondered his mysterious collapse.

With 4-5 belts, gonna have a plethora of weak champ, but now guys like the KBros can't be ducked as they were before and that emaciated little Filipino dwarf got his chance to fully flower, so multi belts have been a good development professionally, but lack off good American amas have reduced American pros to a pittance these days.