Jack Johnson in Color

[Rusty Tromboni]

Jack had to be one of the first to pronate his arm on the jab and extend it out. he still does not use it so much for reach lol, but like a rapier, and to get extension we naturally turn the wrist to do so. I have not seen other fighters from that era use a jab this way...Others may have?

That's a beautiful observation. I suspect others were using the jab. I would love to see colorized footage of McFarland and Kilbane, if Jack P ever gets chance . I always associated Loughran with revolutionizingthe use of the jab. It's basically the punch he and Louis had cornered before it was proliferated to the point of becoming a "must have".

Johnson is using it against smaller men, so I wouldn't get too carried away with sending accolades his way. But it's still impressive seeing him use it. It definitely sheds insight into the use of the punch and the evolution of Boxing.

[billeau2]

That's just a well-cut suit. His taste in clothes is exemplary. Seriously, those are nice threads.

We live in an era where everything is cheap and expendable. It's really hard to find well-tailored clothing.

I was thinking the same thing.

[billeau2]

That's a beautiful observation. I suspect others were using the jab. I would love to see colorized footage of McFarland and Kilbane, if Jack P ever gets chance . I always associated Loughran with revolutionizingthe use of the jab. It's basically the punch he and Louis had cornered before it was proliferated to the point of becoming a "must have".

Johnson is using it against smaller men, so I wouldn't get too carried away with sending accolades his way. But it's still impressive seeing him use it. It definitely sheds insight into the use of the punch and the evolution of Boxing.

As more of Jack P's work comes to pass hopefully we will see Loughran, etc. I will look at some of the film as well.I am Looking for when the wrist started to turn on the strike. This is perhaps the primary thing that separates the lead from the jab. Of course there is the way that it is used for reach which is not the way the lead was utilized. There is also the way it sets up other strikes...and lets note that JJ did not use it that way. Instead JJ would jump in and strike after he got his man moving backwards.

Edit: Just watched some more of Loughran and he does indeed use the jab with a twist.

[QueensburyRules]

- -When my bro and I stRted growing, my parents would send us to the department store for new suits.

A Tyny old ***ish guy would appear with chalk, and pins to make a great fuss over us, and voila, a shiny new suit for the rest of the year.

[Rusty Tromboni]

As more of Jack P's work comes to pass hopefully we will see Loughran, etc. I will look at some of the film as well.I am Looking for when the wrist started to turn on the strike. This is perhaps the primary thing that separates the lead from the jab. Of course there is the way that it is used for reach which is not the way the lead was utilized. There is also the way it sets up other strikes...and lets note that JJ did not use it that way. Instead JJ would jump in and strike after he got his man moving backwards.

Edit: Just watched some more of Loughran and he does indeed use the jab with a twist.

I have a lot about Tunney's use of torque in executing the jab. Certainly that doesn't mean he was the first. But a point was often made in print of elevating his execution of that punch.

I really think you're onto something here. That punch more than anything else seems to separate the earlier generations of Boxers from more "modern" ones. Jake LaMotta, for example, was nothing compared to Walker or Greb. But so much of his success against Robinson was owed to his jab. I really wonder if Greb and Walker might have appeared primitive against more modern opponents for lack of the jab.

Qawi is another who used his jab quite well. Clearly men like Dempsey, Walker, Greb, were all more talented. But Dempsey stalked opponents, rather than cut off the ring because he didn't know how to jab. It's one of his cruder habits, letting movers get away from him when they refuse to be trapped along the ropes/in the corner.

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -When my bro and I stRted growing, my parents would send us to the department store for new suits.

A Tyny old ***ish guy would appear with chalk, and pins to make a great fuss over us, and voila, a shiny new suit for the rest of the year.

Yeah, my grndfather grew up near a ***ish neighborhood where he said the men were exclusively butchers or tailors (or so it seemed). He said if you paid extra, an English tailor would cut your suit himself. But basically the guy worked as a foreman. The goyem was well compensated. One day, this older gentleman said he was going to retire. My grandfather had no idea what that meant. No one in those days "retired". They just died. When my grandfather asked, the English fella said, "son, it means, I am moving to Florida". That was the first my grandfather ever heard of anyone doing that. No one moved South, unless they joined the military. He said it took years before he realized what had been said. But he would always hear the ***s saying, "Dear Mr. Walters moved to FLORIDA! He left us all alone! Will God ever permit us to move to Florida?"

[billeau2]

I have a lot about Tunney's use of torque in executing the jab. Certainly that doesn't mean he was the first. But a point was often made in print of elevating his execution of that punch.

I really think you're onto something here. That punch more than anything else seems to separate the earlier generations of Boxers from more "modern" ones. Jake LaMotta, for example, was nothing compared to Walker or Greb. But so much of his success against Robinson was owed to his jab. I really wonder if Greb and Walker might have appeared primitive against more modern opponents for lack of the jab.

Qawi is another who used his jab quite well. Clearly men like Dempsey, Walker, Greb, were all more talented. But Dempsey stalked opponents, rather than cut off the ring because he didn't know how to jab. It's one of his cruder habits, letting movers get away from him when they refuse to be trapped along the ropes/in the corner.

From what I can see with Tunney...and this is very much a work in progress regarding my knowledge of Gene... He stood alone. he trained and could fight in both systems. So he knew the jab as well as the lead, knew the footwork and traps, but knew how to fire off combo punches in bunches. I would put him as one of the very best, except I do not do lists! they just drive me crazy.

The jab was indeed an incredible weapon. in fencing, reach comes from what you do with your legs as much as what you do with your weapon. As a matter of fact sport fencers as a whole, fight in straight lines with the exception of saber where a point usually happens in a sneeze lol.

naturally when Figg started working with boxing his technique would show how to extend the body to drive the punches. It never occured to him to shorten the footwork movements on the punch, and to use pronation (turning) on the lead to extend the shoulders and arm outward. When we look at the older fighters reach seems less of an issue. today we recognize that a guy like Wilder, or Liston, with a gigantic reach advantage, has a tremendous aid in the ring!

We can see how boxing looks without the emphasis on the jab. Mexican styled fighters on the whole, stylistically use circular punches and often lead off with a hook. I think Tunney said that a Left hook is impossible to counter... So the lead arm hook functions as the jab does in principle: to get you an attack with minimal initial commitment. Of course the way the jab functions as a linear attack uses the philosophy that the shortest distance between two points is straight, and if I can touch you and you cannot touch me, I will catch you first.

By the way I took a look at loughran. had seen a few of his fights but never looked carefully at him and indeed!!! he did use the jab to great effect. Very good looking technical fighter, perhaps truly a guy who might have done wonders with a little more density. But great light heavy and very modern concept employed with the jab.

[billeau2]

Yeah, my grndfather grew up near a ***ish neighborhood where he said the men were exclusively butchers or tailors (or so it seemed). He said if you paid extra, an English tailor would cut your suit himself. But basically the guy worked as a foreman. The goyem was well compensated. One day, this older gentleman said he was going to retire. My grandfather had no idea what that meant. No one in those days "retired". They just died. When my grandfather asked, the English fella said, "son, it means, I am moving to Florida". That was the first my grandfather ever heard of anyone doing that. No one moved South, unless they joined the military. He said it took years before he realized what had been said. But he would always hear the ***s saying, "Dear Mr. Walters moved to FLORIDA! He left us all alone! Will God ever permit us to move to Florida?"

Florida oh Florida. In New York City you were led to believe that while you lived in misery with hot hot summers, amongst the tenaments, noise, etc there was this magic place called California that was just one big beach and lots of pretty girls! Every Puerto Rican in my hood had dreams of going to California and finding Cheech and Chong to smoke blunts with.

Florida was more accesible, one could actually go there...load a car up with friends, cash, and a cooler up with beers... But to get there one had to cross this never never land called the South where everyone talked like racist white guys on television and every cop was just waiting to find new yorkers to pull over (kind of true I guess). I cringe when I think friends of mine will die never knowing that there are parts of california where the beaches are freezing and where one can freeze their @33 off.

[Joe Beamish]

Johnson seems to have had a tremendous height and reach advantage over his opponents. He used it well.

How would such a style do today? Was it the gloves that made the style so different then, or was it the acceptance of grappling? Or what?

[johnbook]

At the beginning, his using sticky hands, outstretched reminded me of Foreman vs Frazier. Some opponents in video using that too.
A lost art now.