How would Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano fare against modern Heavies?

[Rusty Tromboni]

I’ve had a lot of recent debates over the old legends vs our modern heavies. Gene pool size etc. I mean the guys are all so much taller and heavier now “super heavies”. If it was all equal where were those tall guys back then? Carnera was a side show. I’m 5’10” 216 lean. I’ve done my share of bouncing etc. But I also know what it’s like to bare knuckle a guy who is 6’5” with an amateur career who can box backwards. I know I’d try for 175lbs and then cruiser, heavy for the money. I’m not slow or featherfisted but u have to be pretty slick when u can be hit before u can hit someone else. Speed and power is a lot more natural than head movement. Even Mikes head movement is more mythical than real. Rocky would cut weight to answer ur question.

he'd cut weight smarter and better, but again, ony after bulking up.

It's a different game. Roy Jones weighed 190 against Puerto Rican Teddy BEar because he could get away with packing on muscle that Floyd and Conn would have never considered slabbing onto their frame.

If Conn Louis were a 12 rounder, who is to say that Conn wouldn't have come in ABOVE the Light HEavyweight limit - rather than well below it - and would have run away with the fight... quite possibly doing more than rattling Louis, maybe even dropping him, or nearly putting him away. 15 Rounds makes for a massive difference in stamina and conditioning,

[Blond Beast]

Marciano weighed 178 once for a fight. All he’d really have to do is strip naked, ask for a towel to cover him, and then lean on the towel slightly in a discrete way to make 175.

Exactly. Marciano never had to cut weight. Anyone who can really party hard knows how much weight u can lose. 175 could be too brutal to make but it’s not like he was ever as peeled as people get today.

[billeau2]

I think this strikes a healthy balance. Too often the argument becomes black-and-white. Really, there's nuance. And no one can empirically say what conditions make for the best athlete, or even if one exists.


MMA strikers are the best we have ever seen. They will knock anyone the **** out. If you look, you'll see many come from Middle Class America, or something similar. Not that they grew up in Trump Towers, but no way those guys had an up-bringing as tough as Boxers who came of age 100 years ago. That's not to say they're not tough, or that they aren't natural killers. But they are clearly better fighters thanks to modern advancements. No one will dispute this.


With Professional Sports it can be argued that many sports have gotten better, but we can also see examples of decay or stagnation. They have also tried to make sports safer, which is conducive to better numbers and longer careers.

It's happened w/ Greyhound racing, too. They run on a speciliazed track the reduces impact. Generations of breeding have produced lighter-boned dogs that can run faster on that track, but whose bones splinter on more natural/commonly occuring surfaces. That says nothing about the dogs having the desire to hold their prey, if they were to catch it. So, yes, Greayhounds are meant to be the fastest sighthounds, best able to catch their prey. But now, Greyhounds that are faster than ever find it impossible to even reach their prey, forget overtaking it. If irony could kill, Greyhound tracks would be on the banks of the River Styx.

Very well put! Nuanced is an excellent descriptive.

Yes social conditions change I tend to think of these conditions as always being flexible enough so that those who are tough, strong, and fearless will have their opportunities. One guy was asked where Navy Seals came from. He laughed and gave the standard "where ever bad@33e3 reside type retort, but he then mentioned some occupations, hobbies... One thing he mentioned was rodeo guys. Being from New York City I never met rodeo guys. I did remember that one Jim Harrison, a really tough hombre and great Karateka/Judo player had mentioned one of his toughest scraps...and it had been against a determined rodeo guy!

The thing is, there are all these outlets, as I am sure most people naver heard of the Guardian Angels, a self defense group that patrols the streets. I trained these guys in san francisco and they had some legit bad @33es. So the amount of outlets for guys who want to fight is an absurd amount. And these outlets exist in all levels of society. A childhood friend of mine Paul Klebnikoff came from a very rich Russian family. He used to look like a little school boy when we were kids! I later found out, that he had been murdered for being a journalist who stood up against the Russian Oligarchs...A rich bad@33 for sure.

We are seeing people who want to fight, including women! that now have access to the training. Very few fought full contact in the ring when I was coming up. Now its available in every gym. A woman scientist who developed a mathmatical biological solution to a major problem trains as an MMA fighter for the rest of the year!

My point is that what you mentioned is a new way that is bringing people into the fighting arts. Women and men.

[billeau2]

[QUOTE=Rusty Tromboni;19914806]he'd cut weight smarter and better, but again, ony after bulking up.

It's a different game. Roy Jones weighed 190 against Puerto Rican Teddy BEar because he could get away with packing on muscle that Floyd and Conn would have never considered slabbing onto their frame.

If Conn Louis were a 12 rounder, who is to say that Conn wouldn't have come in ABOVE the Light HEavyweight limit - rather than well below it - and would have run away with the fight... quite possibly doing more than rattling Louis, maybe even dropping him, or nearly putting him away. 15 Rounds makes for a massive difference in stamina and conditioning,[/QUOTE]


So true. I miss 15 rounders they gave the championship rounds to us and were vital for punchers to get enough opportunity against defensive minded fighters.

[billeau2]

Whitaker-sized Fitzsimmons beat Corbett who was their size and as an old man gave Prime Tunney hell in sparring.

You have to look and deconstruct Fitz. He is a genetic oddity, with the closest ever other heavyweight being perhaps Max Baer. Both men had large shoulders and back muscles and small stomachs and relatively small legs. But Fitz was more exxagerated. From the trunk up he was a big powerful man.

Tunney was being mentored by Corbett. Its hard to explain...As a martial artist, when some other teacher is showing you a technique, if you have a question about the effectiveness you ask later. When being demonstrated on, or shown something, even in a freeform environment like sparring, you show respect. Tunney does this with Corbett. Corbett is showing him different footwork, different punches, etc. Tunney was smart enough to take the role of student under the conditions. Given their relative ages, Tunney would have flattened Jim if he wanted lol.

[MartialMind]

Infograph detailing the measurements of Rocky and Old Joe

[Rusty Tromboni]

Very well put! Nuanced is an excellent descriptive.

Yes social conditions change I tend to think of these conditions as always being flexible enough so that those who are tough, strong, and fearless will have their opportunities. One guy was asked where Navy Seals came from. He laughed and gave the standard "where ever bad@33e3 reside type retort, but he then mentioned some occupations, hobbies... One thing he mentioned was rodeo guys. Being from New York City I never met rodeo guys. I did remember that one Jim Harrison, a really tough hombre and great Karateka/Judo player had mentioned one of his toughest scraps...and it had been against a determined rodeo guy!

The thing is, there are all these outlets, as I am sure most people naver heard of the Guardian Angels, a self defense group that patrols the streets. I trained these guys in san francisco and they had some legit bad @33es. So the amount of outlets for guys who want to fight is an absurd amount. And these outlets exist in all levels of society. A childhood friend of mine Paul Klebnikoff came from a very rich Russian family. He used to look like a little school boy when we were kids! I later found out, that he had been murdered for being a journalist who stood up against the Russian Oligarchs...A rich bad@33 for sure.

We are seeing people who want to fight, including women! that now have access to the training. Very few fought full contact in the ring when I was coming up. Now its available in every gym. A woman scientist who developed a mathmatical biological solution to a major problem trains as an MMA fighter for the rest of the year!

My point is that what you mentioned is a new way that is bringing people into the fighting arts. Women and men.

Yeah, this nails it. There are so many outlets for 8 Billions people to place their energy, which are less likely to result in brain damage and minimal financial advancement.

My wrestlers who weren't very good often went into the military when they realized a spot on a college team wouldn't materialize. Some would go into plumbing or welding, or went to community college/family business to put away. I have to say a lot of those kids are doing very, very well now as adults. I'm sure they like Boxing - they definitely like MMA - but they have no interest or need in competing. Had they been born 2 or 3 generations earlier you can be almost certain they would have tried it. Prime candidates.

So if anything, the larger the global population and "smaller" the world, the LESS likely people are to turn to Boxing. Something less dangerous/more profitable/more culturally acceptable will surface and steal away talent.

That is bad ass that you taught the Guardian Angels. I grew up always knowing people who's uncles/cousins/friends were active with that group up in NYC. They did a lot to get that mad house under control. Unfortunately, I suspect we don't have as many people attempting to serve that group... and local governments are probably very much against their presence. The places that need them most, probably want them least.

[billeau2]

Yeah, this nails it. There are so many outlets for 8 Billions people to place their energy, which are less likely to result in brain damage and minimal financial advancement.

My wrestlers who weren't very good often went into the military when they realized a spot on a college team wouldn't materialize. Some would go into plumbing or welding, or went to community college/family business to put away. I have to say a lot of those kids are doing very, very well now as adults. I'm sure they like Boxing - they definitely like MMA - but they have no interest or need in competing. Had they been born 2 or 3 generations earlier you can be almost certain they would have tried it. Prime candidates.

So if anything, the larger the global population and "smaller" the world, the LESS likely people are to turn to Boxing. Something less dangerous/more profitable/more culturally acceptable will surface and steal away talent.

That is bad ass that you taught the Guardian Angels. I grew up always knowing people who's uncles/cousins/friends were active with that group up in NYC. They did a lot to get that mad house under control. Unfortunately, I suspect we don't have as many people attempting to serve that group... and local governments are probably very much against their presence. The places that need them most, probably want them least.

Yeah back in the day there was always incentive to "earn" like Braddock did for example. And in today's world there are many of those tough guys that become firemen in places like California. I well remember in out old hood in San Francisco, a whole block of Victorians went up...they are wood, and once one caught, all they could do was contain the damage. A whole block on Pierce and Haight gone. The Firemen were very nice and one could see that they hated not being able to act. You have to be very well trained to run towards something like that.

LOl. Curtis Silwa the Angel's founder is a character. Did you know they tried to rub him out? Still pisses out of a bag... They picked him up in a taxi and when he got in (as he tells it) he notices there are no door stalks that go up to open the door...And it was on! he got out of their and survived but lost part of his stomach.

I started out helping another instructor and eventually when he left I was asked to train them. The toughest thing is when you go on patrol with them. In Frisco we went into Crack Houses, posted up on drug corners, etc. A lot of the kids are very young...like as young as 15 or so. The whole thing Silwa taught (and he was right) was if people know the Angels do not rock guns, nobody would use guns.

I saw the limits of that philosophy in action My favorite story: We just went through and ransacked a crack den. Picture going into a dark, grimy foyer with people in corners, and all types of drug stuff around. So we are outside posted and I am trying to assess and keep things under control while participating...and this dude pulls a piece...One of those Brazilian brands I forgot the caliber. He starts jawing with the kid next to me...a tough scrawny 15 year old from Detroit, out to prove that a scrawney white kid from that area is tougher than they look!

So this guy sees "his mark" so to speak and he shows the gun and starts "white boy I will fvk you up the......" Jeremy throws a straight right and decks the guy I reflexively grab the kid and throw him behind me (I didn't have wife or kids back then but I guess the instinct was there)... As this guy is reeling back and sort of looking at the piece the main drug dealer comes out and starts pulling his guys off the street (problems, shootings are bad for business).

Had a few close calls like that. Had to also teach the guys who could fight that the idea was to bring the other guys who could not fight, up to speed. We had some great sparring sessions. The chapter leader was a great guy. He was also a decent Blues musician. Big ****er! lol.

[Nash out]

I think Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano now would just be decent journeymen. I'd give Rocky Balboa every chance of a heavyweight title shot though. Heart, power, good tough come-forward guy. Would loved to have seen a prime Rocky Balboa vs Dillian Whyte. Fireworks!

[JuggyvsCable]

So many of these old guys still believing a 5'10 180 pound guy like Rocky Marciano could beat modern sized and modern skilled heavyweights. It cracks me up. The last time there was a legit sub 200 pound heavyweight champion was back in the early 1960's when Floyd Patterson was champion. If 5'10 180 pound guys could beat modern sized guys then why hasn't one of these guys appeared since Marciano?

Joe Louis was cute for his era. Most of the guys he fought were small. The bigger ones like Prime Carnera, Buddy Baer, and Abe Simon weren't skilled by modern standards. Even somebody as unskilled as Deontay Wilder is far more talented, athletic, and skilled than anybody Joe Louis fought. If 6'0 160 to 170 pound light punching Billy Conn could hurt Joe Louis then Wilder, Joshua, ect would destroy him. Not to mention Mike Tyson, George Foreman, Lennox Lewis, ect. For those who will say but these guys were hurt or knocked down. Sure they were. But they weren't knocked down or hurt by 160 pound guys.

Oh and here is a link to the Ted Lowry vs Marciano fight. Ted Lowry a guy who had a career record of 70-68 and weighed between 160-180 pound was able to beat Marciano around the ring and had to hold back to avoid knocking Marciano. This is why there are no 180 pound heavyweight champions anymore.

Finally do you remember Bob Foster the light heavyweight "great". He was 6'3 180. He was considered a hard puncher fighting guys his own size. What happened when he moved up faced even smaller modern heavyweights like Joe Frazier? His punching power was ineffective and he was slaughtered in 2 rounds. The thing is Foster had skills. Marciano had no skill and this is what would of happened to him if he had to face the David Tua, Mike Tyson, George Foreman, Lennox Lewis, Rid**** Bowe, Wladimir Klitschko ect. He would be destroyed. I know this may hurt some of you. But there are weight classes for a reason.