I'm sorry but i can't see Liston as a great or even good boxer ?

[GhostofDempsey]

Which always counts. Look at Dempsey, first the villain slacker, then the beloved beaten fighter.

Either way it was lots and lots of ink, and when selling tickets bad ink can be as good as good ink.

Tunney, on the other hand had a far more dominate career (when evaluated by folks like us), but he was by many accounts a boorish man.

When evaluating legacy one can't look to the opinions from guys like us, you've got to step outside the game and evaluate it from the casuals POV.

I am not even sure if it is a wrong or not.

Prize fighting is, must be, an entertainment or it ceases to exist.

In acting, stars can often be 'not very good' actors, but they drive the business, and are the ones remembered.

I suspect like you and Marchegiano that Wald ends up on ATG lists, and maybe is overrated. But that is going to be lists on forums like this one.

I think most Americans (and Yea! I think our opinion ends up counting more when you discuss or measure fame) barely know that man's name now, dispite how long he held the title, they will never remember him later.

I can make a list of things 'I hate about Tyson Fury' but thank the boxing gods for giving him to us, the game sorely needed him.

Paradoxically Ali may been given many gifts in the ring (I agree) but he sure earned the legacy!

I credit Ali with resurrecting boxing during the 1960's. Television was killing the small boxing venues and boxing's popularity was in a slump. Ali was able to orchestrate boxing's transition from live venues to television and make it bigger. Ali did as much for the sport as Dempsey when it comes to breathing life into the sport and putting it back on top. I mostly disagree with the chants of casuals and even sportswriters who declare him "The Greatest", same as I dismiss any fans or journalists claim that Floyd is "The Best Ever". A great defensive fighter but certainly not the best ever at any weight or on a P4P basis.

[QueensburyRules]

As usual you are a boxing fan; casuals will decide who will be remembered - the average American doesn't know there were two of them, never mind telling them apart.

His 'long' reign was as boring as his style; he and his brother almost killed prize fighting; certainly drove away an entire generation to MMA.

In just a generation no one will be talking about either of them, other than really insightful posters who can also notice the greatness of say a Machen or Miske. You know guys like us.

- - Sorry to hear U singing in soprano after the Ks and other Euros and Meskins emasculated American boxing.

Deyonce American last saving grace...priceless

[The Old LefHook]

Liston's hands could span a tennis racket. Those mitts could pick men up by the top of their heads.

[Willie Pep 229]

- - Sorry to hear U singing in soprano after the Ks and other Euros and Meskins emasculated American boxing.

Deyonce American last saving grace...priceless

No, sports is the area where we should Excell.

Controlled violence - the whole 'the Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eaton' thing.

Need redirect man's need to compete to sports and his need to explore to space. That's where the primeval need to hunt will serve us best.

Let the women handle the rest; the planet will be better off in their hands. (Real women, not that perversion out of Georgia who wants to pretend to be a man with a gun.)

We are hard wired to hunt; compete; explore. But that's done, the planet is too crowded and the exploration is done.

For 500 years now that need to hunt and explore has become perverse: war and colonialism. We no longer need these things to move forward.

We did our end, time to let the women step up and do their thing, politics.

We'll do space and technology; they're no good at math anyway, but we're no good at living in peace, time for us to accept that. The history is simply too ugly to continue.

And don't tell me you're politically wiser than your wife; that's an illusion based on her inability to understand the ******ity of a Trump or a *****, but I'll bet you and the boys picked up your socks. That's politics.

They know how to get the job done without all the posturing.

[Marchegiano]

Okay, makes sense. I wasn't quite sure where you were going, but we essentially agree here. Wlad is highly overrated. But I also made the same argument with Ali, which went over like a fart in church. But hear me out; I agree that Ali is an ATG HW champion. But I don't rank him as the greatest HW champion of all time and certainly not a P4P great. Partly over some holes in his resume, his fighting style, and some questionable decisions that went in his favor. He also had a lot of help with his legacy from sportswriters and journalists who were enamored by his charisma and rallied behind his causes.

Pretty much. I don't think it's natural to have such a consensus on names. Like you say, Ali for HW. That's not really natural I don't think. I don't mean this as disrespect to Ali. He is a fine choice for GOAT, I just don't think so many fans would choose him if they knew more, and I don't think we'd see the same recycled names so much as the supporting cast of top ten HWs.

I do think that's why you see more variance in history sections than current sections on any boxing forum. It's a history section post where you're going to see a name like Tom Sharkey as an ATG HW.

[Ropss]

Liston was highly underrated and his fights with Ali were fixes. Ali fans will deny it and ask for proof, but it’s been written about in several thoroughly researched books. Watch his fights and how he went through a prime Cleveland Williams with ease (not the bullet riddled washed up version Ali fought) as well as other solid HW’s like Patterson 2x, Folley, Machen. He had an excellent jab, new how to cut off the ring, and Forrman himself called him the hardest puncher he ever stepped in the ring with.

Very overrated and very small standards

[QueensburyRules]

No, sports is the area where we should Excell.

Controlled violence - the whole 'the Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eaton' thing.

Need redirect man's need to compete to sports and his need to explore to space. That's where the primeval need to hunt will serve us best.

Let the women handle the rest; the planet will be better off in their hands. (Real women, not that perversion out of Georgia who wants to pretend to be a man with a gun.)

We are hard wired to hunt; compete; explore. But that's done, the planet is too crowded and the exploration is done.

For 500 years now that need to hunt and explore has become perverse: war and colonialism. We no longer need these things to move forward.

We did our end, time to let the women step up and do their thing, politics.

We'll do space and technology; they're no good at math anyway, but we're no good at living in peace, time for us to accept that. The history is simply too ugly to continue.

And don't tell me you're politically wiser than your wife; that's an illusion based on her inability to understand the ******ity of a Trump or a *****, but I'll bet you and the boys picked up your socks. That's politics.

They know how to get the job done without all the posturing.

- - Wife and I split domestic duties thusly-

Me basic yard maintenance, remodeling/construction projects, dog p00, daily child care and education, cooking.

She most kitchen washing, cleaning, housekeeping, decorating, nightly child care.

We each washed/dried our own clothes. She did the official financial book keeping which was fine by me since I kept the books in my head anyway, so we were never in the red.

I don't know who she ever voted for or even if she voted, but I always voted even when I didn't to cast a blank paper ballot in the box when the selections were so dire. We seldom discussed the ruin of modern American politics. Even our social lives were mostly apart as she would go out with the girls for drinks mainly and I'd play my golf/watch football/baseball/boxing with my best friends, guys of course.

[StarshipTrooper]

This thread reminded me what a bionic phuckhead dan_cov was and is

[markusmod]

This thread reminded me what a bionic phuckhead dan_cov was and is

Dan is a huge Cobbs fan. That's worth something.

[QueensburyRules]

Dan is a huge Cobbs fan. That's worth something.

- - I like Cobbs. Ultimately though, he's like popcorn going up against Lions.