lennox lewis and George foreman

[Rusty Tromboni]

Even if we knew for sure that a Ron Lyle punch is harder than those of McCall or Rahman it still wouldn't provide us with any reliable insights into the absolute strength of Lewis' chin - or anyone else's for that matter.

It's quite possible for someone to be starched by a punch which is demonstrably weaker than others which he took flush earlier in the bout or his career.

There are myriad complicated factors at play when a fighter is knocked down which have nothing to do with power. Where did the blow land exactly? What condition was the recipient in when it was delivered. As Sugar Ray once said, "It's the punches you don't see which matter".

We can be confident that Foreman punches harder than Mercer, and that Lewis doesn't box so well as Ali and Young, though.


I actually don't think Foreman gasses as easy as many of us often recall. If he were a little smarter (that is, listened to Gil Clancy better) we might be calling him the greatest Hw of all time.

Lewis might not get blown-out, a la Rahman and McCall, but he'll probably lose the early rounds, and never sufficiently recover on the scorecards.

[OctoberRed]

We can be confident that Foreman punches harder than Mercer, and that Lewis doesn't box so well as Ali and Young, though.


I actually don't think Foreman gasses as easy as many of us often recall. If he were a little smarter (that is, listened to Gil Clancy better) we might be calling him the greatest Hw of all time.

Lewis might not get blown-out, a la Rahman and McCall, but he'll probably lose the early rounds, and never sufficiently recover on the scorecards.

Wasn't Lyle that nearly put Foreman to sleep?

[Rusty Tromboni]

Wasn't Lyle that nearly put Foreman to sleep?

Yup, "nearly". That's the operative word. Along with heart, Foreman showed the stamina to prevail against Lyle.

When have we seen Lennox get up from the canvas to win a fight?

[them_apples]

If lewis went in with Lyle all casual like he did against Rahman he would have been out before his head hit the canvas.

[QueensburyRules]

- -With Lewis, it's 2 punches resulting in 2 of some of the most definitive knockouts in heavywt history, his only 2 losses.

It's a very unusual anomaly that cannot be so readily dismissed even as he avenged those defeats.

In short, there is something not quite right exacerbated by the way the self proclaimed Lion retired looking more like the Lamb.

[The Old LefHook]

If Lewis got hurt, he also got KO'd. That may be solid overstatement. But let us never forget that he was KO'd by two fighters, both from the middle region of the ability scale. No one is calling them bums, but it is likely as it stands now that historically, their places are in the bottom half of HWChamps rather than the top half. They will not rise again, lads.

I have an intuition that Foreman could bully Lewis, especially psychologically. Lewis can hit and he also has good accuracy. But surprisingly, I believe this fight could go opposite from what many expect based off Foreman's stamina issues. It may be Lewis who will wear down first. Tension wears a fighter down in the ring fast, it seems to me. I am no Ray Corso when it comes to enough experience to state this as a fact, however I believe it from consistent observation to be a boxing truth, probably an athletic truth. Fighting tense wears its own self down fast. I noticed Mayweather's skill level and robes of reputation usually tensed his opponents up and they ended up wearing down for no apparent obvious reason.

It is not easy--in fact I do not even consider it reasonable--to envision Lewis fighting a relaxed fight against big George. You say Lewis was an inch and a quarter taller? Hell, lads, George is 6'4" when he steps out of the shower, as long as he steps onto a towel.

It is not a size thing. The point is George has enough size. Lenny will not nickname him little Georgie, even silently in his heart, boys, because he does not want to embarrass the little guy.

If George starts out winning, he will win. Period. Lewis has to start out winning, take the initiative immediately, then he might possibly win. I believe George's glancing shots contain enough menace to damage the psychology of Lewis early on. Lewis must turn the tables and damage the psyche of George immediately. This means an awfully good and aggressive fight, if he adopts that plan, because we already know Geroge's plan--carpet bomb. An arrow straight right over a slipped lazy George jab could be awfully bad medicine for Foreman. Making the other guy respect you essentially means taking part of his heart. His heart is really his head, or often is. See that?

[billeau2]

If Lewis got hurt, he also got KO'd. That may be solid overstatement. But let us never forget that he was KO'd by two fighters, both from the middle region of the ability scale. No one is calling them bums, but it is likely as it stands now that historically, their places are in the bottom half of HWChamps rather than the top half. They will not rise again, lads.

I have an intuition that Foreman could bully Lewis, especially psychologically. Lewis can hit and he also has good accuracy. But surprisingly, I believe this fight could go opposite from what many expect based off Foreman's stamina issues. It may be Lewis who will wear down first. Tension wears a fighter down in the ring fast, it seems to me. I am no Ray Corso when it comes to enough experience to state this as a fact, however I believe it from consistent observation to be a boxing truth, probably an athletic truth. Fighting tense wears its own self down fast. I noticed Mayweather's skill level and robes of reputation usually tensed his opponents up and they ended up wearing down for no apparent obvious reason.

It is not easy--in fact I do not even consider it reasonable--to envision Lewis fighting a relaxed fight against big George. You say Lewis was an inch and a quarter taller? Hell, lads, George is 6'4" when he steps out of the shower, as long as he steps onto a towel.

It is not a size thing. The point is George has enough size. Lenny will not nickname him little Georgie, even silently in his heart, boys, because he does not want to embarrass the little guy.

If George starts out winning, he will win. Period. Lewis has to start out winning, take the initiative immediately, then he might possibly win. I believe George's glancing shots contain enough menace to damage the psychology of Lewis early on. Lewis must turn the tables and damage the psyche of George immediately. This means an awfully good and aggressive fight, if he adopts that plan, because we already know Geroge's plan--carpet bomb. An arrow straight right over a slipped lazy George jab could be awfully bad medicine for Foreman. Making the other guy respect you essentially means taking part of his heart. His heart is really his head, or often is. See that?

George Foreman liked to fight smaller men. He would often control their shoulders, turning them into punches, etc.

Lewis by contrast liked fighting bigger men. While Rahman and the atomic bull (Mccall) were smaller, lets also not forget Mercer who gave Lewis a hell of a time...even that journeyman who hung around and would not go down.

Even against Vitali who was Lewis' size, a horribly out of shape Lewis was able to simplify the fight and make it a trade off. Against Grant who was Lewis' size Lewis controlled and set grant up for horrendous punches.

I think this preference might make the fight very interesting. If they got into a punch out it might look like the Foreman Lyle fight or even the Vitalie fight.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Hmm, so in BillyWorld, Vitali and Lewie the same size, but Lewie outta shape?

In spite of having a 2 week pretraining camp with Manny who flew to England a month before their 2 month training camp was to commence?

So, what kind of shape in BillyWorld was Vitali who flew to LA 3 weeks before the fight as replacement for Tyson who pulled out of the undercard, and then 2 weeks before that fight when Lewie's opponent injured a titty to pull out whom Vitali replaced?

We wanna know.

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -Hmm, so in BillyWorld, Vitali and Lewie the same size, but Lewie outta shape?

In spite of having a 2 week pretraining camp with Manny who flew to England a month before their 2 month training camp was to commence?

So, what kind of shape in BillyWorld was Vitali who flew to LA 3 weeks before the fight as replacement for Tyson who pulled out of the undercard, and then 2 weeks before that fight when Lewie's opponent injured a titty to pull out whom Vitali replaced?

We wanna know.

You're the resident Diva, and we love you for it. But sometimes it obscures your fine points.

I agree, that was Lewis' fight to lose. And it's not a foregone conclusion that Lewis would have had the gas to keep up the surge that was bringing the fight back to him. (I blame the stoppage on Karma: there's no good reason, as I can see it, for why Klitchko quit against Byrd. He litrally could have stood still holding his fooking arm for the last 6 minutes, and still won the fight.) Yeah, Vitali was cut and no longer controlling the fight, but that was a very much unwarranted stoppage favoring a man about to go into cardiac arrest.

Lewis' retirement tells you everything about who HE thinks the better man is. And that's even Vitali w/o Steward. The Manny Steward product is a much better fighter than even the best Lewis. Not as explosive. But an all together better fighter.

Sorry for the rant.


I still think Lewis-Mercer is the fight to reference. When Lewis can't get a guy out quick, or out-box him, he looks pretty pedestrian.

[them_apples]

George Foreman liked to fight smaller men. He would often control their shoulders, turning them into punches, etc.

Lewis by contrast liked fighting bigger men. While Rahman and the atomic bull (Mccall) were smaller, lets also not forget Mercer who gave Lewis a hell of a time...even that journeyman who hung around and would not go down.

Even against Vitali who was Lewis' size, a horribly out of shape Lewis was able to simplify the fight and make it a trade off. Against Grant who was Lewis' size Lewis controlled and set grant up for horrendous punches.

I think this preference might make the fight very interesting. If they got into a punch out it might look like the Foreman Lyle fight or even the Vitalie fight.

This is just what Foreman did to Frazier, and I suppose Qawi. But realistically he likes to bully everyone, One of his easiest fights was against Cooney.

Foreman was just as tough and determined in the 90's, but he wasn't dangerous. He was slow and patient. But we saw how tough he was. In the 70's Foreman is dangerous. I couldn't see Lewis surviving. Even Lyle getting a couple free howitzers on Foremans jaw was the pre Ali Foreman, not the confident Foreman leading up to the title.