Would a Prime Muhammad Ali win over a prime Wlad?

[QueensburyRules]

No... he was never stretched by Sanders, not in Queeny world! He was ready to have another go! Just decided to let his brother take care of his light work is all.

than you for considering your affect on my IQ as I feel it slide dowwwwn trying to talk sense into that acorn you call a skull. How long have you and Houdini been posting opposite each other? you guys are an old married couple it is hillarious! Is it true that Houdini only wears Brooks Brothers shirts and eats with chopsticks the wrong way?

Oh yeah and still waiting on the official weight limit for the heavyweight division... Yu sir are a riot!!!

- -The AOL forums were quite a bit more riotous than just me and Hoodini, but you being from Cali seem to want to insert yourself into a ménage a trois.

Sad to see you so nervous that Wlad was never stretched, but facts is facts and just the facts ma'am as Joe Friday used to intone.

Imagine if the Ks turned pro with Archie Moore as their trainer instead of a Soviet amateur?

They'd never have the need to flee to Dundee. Mistakes were made and lessons learned in the school of hard knocks and the rest is the most dominating era of boxing.

[The Old LefHook]

It's not dominance alone but who you dominate. The Klitkensteins did not dominate the likes of the buzzsaw Frazier, the sinister and technical Liston, the gloved wrecking ball of Foreman, the precision power of Shavers and the destructive force of Williams, now did they?

On Ali's ledger are most of the top consensus candidates for hardest punching heavyweight ever. No one else could say that. Three if not four of them. Chew on that awhile.

[billeau2]

- -The AOL forums were quite a bit more riotous than just me and Hoodini, but you being from Cali seem to want to insert yourself into a ménage a trois.

Sad to see you so nervous that Wlad was never stretched, but facts is facts and just the facts ma'am as Joe Friday used to intone.

Imagine if the Ks turned pro with Archie Moore as their trainer instead of a Soviet amateur?

They'd never have the need to flee to Dundee. Mistakes were made and lessons learned in the school of hard knocks and the rest is the most dominating era of boxing.

No I have no desire to insert anything near you two, you both attract attention with your unique posting styles

Im taking Lefty's advice regarding that second monstrosity posted...I feel my head getting smaller when I engage you too much.

[Rusty Tromboni]

It's not dominance alone but who you dominate. The Klitkensteins did not dominate the likes of the buzzsaw Frazier, the sinister and technical Liston, the gloved wrecking ball of Foreman, the precision power of Shavers and the destructive force of Williams, now did they?

On Ali's ledger are most of the top consensus candidates for hardest punching heavyweight ever. No one else could say that. Three if not four of them. Chew on that awhile.

That's a valid point.

But true of false: Duran's Lightweight career was better than his post-Lightweight career?

Vitali, at least, murders those guys. He murders Norton, too. And he beats Holmes in the order of something like 9-6.

[robertzimmerman]

He was in his 30's. That is the athletic prime, particularly of a big man. We're not talking about female tennis players here.


The level of opposition awaiting Ali when he returned had skyrocketed. Let's not pretend he fought anything close to Joe Frazier when skill known as Cassius Clay.

Liston was a faded, and probably always overrated, fighter when he met Ali. Ali still only managed to just slip by. Whether or not he had taken that approach had he met Liston in the early 70's, I don't know. It worked. But if he really had lost a step, I don't think any style adjustments would have been for the worse. Honestly, we don't have a good gauge for how Liston might've dealt w/ adversity (a la Foreman vs Frazier and Foreman vs. Lyle; or Tyson vs. Douglas). He walked through Folley and Williams, so I'm not suggesting he was a Heavyweight Julian Jackson. But I think a 70's Ali has no problems standing his ground against Liston, while no one criticizies him for opting to Box in their actual fights.


Either way, both incarnations of Ali (pre and post exile) are meeting a man much more capable than anyone Ali ever fought. He's got the Boxing ability of Norton and the punch of Foreman. Ali wasn't a Locche or Pep. He wasn't even a Larry Holmes. He would resort to fire-fights when his schemes weren't enough. That's how it'll play out against Klitchko.

No, we're not talking about female tennis players.

We're also not looking at the average athletes prime.

We are specifically looking at Ali's athletic prime. And that was when he was 25 years of age, just before his 3 year hiatus.

How did he just slip by Liston?

[robertzimmerman]

- -Are you maintaining a noninjured Ali at the height of his testosterone production at age 28 ain't physiologically prime?

You making Ali out to be some kinda sissy?

Gotta give you credit, that's as left field a statement as can be made. We already established he was as mentally and motivationally as could possibly be.

You ever been 28 Zimmy? At that age I was invincible, but maybe not the average Joe. Ali was never the average Joe.

What the hell are you taking about?

Seriously?

Anybody that knows anything of his career knows that he looked at his best athletically, when he was 25 just before he lost his license. Yes, he was still relatively young when he came back. But there's a clear difference between the two versions of him. This really shouldn't need explaining to you.

[robertzimmerman]

... he was much bigger than Ali, of course...

Yes, but I meant that those young versions of Wlad would have been more dangerous to Ali, than the prime versions of Wlad who was with Manny.

[QueensburyRules]

It's not dominance alone but who you dominate. The Klitkensteins did not dominate the likes of the buzzsaw Frazier, the sinister and technical Liston, the gloved wrecking ball of Foreman, the precision power of Shavers and the destructive force of Williams, now did they?

On Ali's ledger are most of the top consensus candidates for hardest punching heavyweight ever. No one else could say that. Three if not four of them. Chew on that awhile.

- -Ali never had to tangle with the likes of Dempsey and Louis, so that would make him inferior, eh?

We already know he lost to Rocky, so there it is, nice and tidy for you in your bib and highchair, thanks!!!

[billeau2]

- -Ali never had to tangle with the likes of Dempsey and Louis, so that would make him inferior, eh?

We already know he lost to Rocky, so there it is, nice and tidy for you in your bib and highchair, thanks!!!

So there are only two punchers? People like Foreman, Frazier and Liston dont apply? Do you ever think before you post? Ali fought some of the biggest punchers what is so hard to understand? And how could your hypothetical make him inferior, are you that low IQ? inferior to what? NOBODY could have fought those two they fought at different times. To have "inferior" you must have "Superior."

[QueensburyRules]

What the hell are you taking about?

Seriously?

Anybody that knows anything of his career knows that he looked at his best athletically, when he was 25 just before he lost his license. Yes, he was still relatively young when he came back. But there's a clear difference between the two versions of him. This really shouldn't need explaining to you.

- -What you know about "athletics" was probably laced in all those corndogs you ate.

He changed his style with 80% less running by use of ropadoping that he practiced in sparring during his prime years and more sitting down on his punches now that he was stronger than ever.

Never did tell us what grade yer in Zimmy.

It's ok, everyone has value here.