Wlad–Chagaev & the lineal HW title

[billeau2]

Why was it when wilder wanted to fight Fury, some fans dug the lineal out. Why didn't the same fans put it on the line when he fought sefari and penaitia?

Lots of reasons. Why would a discussion of the lineal mean anything when Fury fought Sefari and Penaitia? Lets say you have 3 guys who claim to be the champion of the heavyweight division.

One guy makes a claim to the title because an organization sanctions him as the champ, ditto for another guy, and the third guy makes a claim to the title because he beat the last guy who beat the best... First of all, all these guys are making A CLAIM to the Title. None of these claims are absolute. Th itis is important to understand. For example, if I have a rent controlled apartment in New York City that I can rent for 1000 bucks that has 5 bedrooms, and the owner has to rent to me, both the owner and I have an interest, a claim to certain rights involving the property. he can sell the place, refinance the place, I can use the place to live in... Neither is an absolute ownership with no conditions...just like all three guys have a claim to the title.

In the situation with three guys it is important to have a legitimate claim to the title, because there are three people involved. Why shouldn't Fury use the Lineal if it is a legitimate claim to the title? And it was "dug up" by the fans, as it should be precisely because it was legitimate and necessary.

Your misunderstanding is this: You don't advertise a fight for the lineal, like you do a fight for the WWW or the intercontinental, or whatever the title named! It does not work that way. The lineal functions more as a claim to legitimacy regarding any and all titles involving the heavyweight division. Did you beat the best? are you the lineal? if not why not? Another way to look at it is to go through and see how many champions got there in the heavyweight division WITHOUT beating the best. Now you will find that when uncontested, nobody even mentioned the lineal because it was hardly necessary.

[Laligalaliga]

Lots of reasons. Why would a discussion of the lineal mean anything when Fury fought Sefari and Penaitia? Lets say you have 3 guys who claim to be the champion of the heavyweight division.

One guy makes a claim to the title because an organization sanctions him as the champ, ditto for another guy, and the third guy makes a claim to the title because he beat the last guy who beat the best... First of all, all these guys are making A CLAIM to the Title. None of these claims are absolute. Th itis is important to understand. For example, if I have a rent controlled apartment in New York City that I can rent for 1000 bucks that has 5 bedrooms, and the owner has to rent to me, both the owner and I have an interest, a claim to certain rights involving the property. he can sell the place, refinance the place, I can use the place to live in... Neither is an absolute ownership with no conditions...just like all three guys have a claim to the title.

In the situation with three guys it is important to have a legitimate claim to the title, because there are three people involved. Why shouldn't Fury use the Lineal if it is a legitimate claim to the title? And it was "dug up" by the fans, as it should be precisely because it was legitimate and necessary.

Your misunderstanding is this: You don't advertise a fight for the lineal, like you do a fight for the WWW or the intercontinental, or whatever the title named! It does not work that way. The lineal functions more as a claim to legitimacy regarding any and all titles involving the heavyweight division. Did you beat the best? are you the lineal? if not why not? Another way to look at it is to go through and see how many champions got there in the heavyweight division WITHOUT beating the best. Now you will find that when uncontested, nobody even mentioned the lineal because it was hardly necessary.

Why wouldn't it be on the line when the assignment is the guy that beat the guy.
What if penaitia had pulled a surprise win? Will he be denied the title because hez not one of the top guys?

[Marchegiano]

Why was it when wilder wanted to fight Fury, some fans dug the lineal out. Why didn't the same fans put it on the line when he fought sefari and penaitia?

I wasn't active here at the time. Am i allowed to post links to other forums?

I could copy and paste my posts from when Ring stripped Fury, but, you'd still have to believe I didn't just type that BS posthaste.


I was at ESB/BF24 at the time. It was a big issue to them. I posted as GlaukosTheHammer.

I think that's about the best I can do without breaking rules. I trust you know what ESB is.

I can't play the role of a Wilder supporter on this forum at that time because I wasn't here. I don't know what they were posting before me. I didn't know there was other Wilder fans on this forum.

[Marchegiano]

You can't campare a monarch where the position is succeeded in relation to who is the most direct heir to boxings Lineal champ which requires you to win a fight to the gain the title and therefore can most certianly end if the Champ retires undefeated.

There is a reason the phrase "the man that beat the man" is often coined with Lineal title holders and that means you can't just inherit them for nothing with new lines starting when the correct parameters are met.

You are being hypocritical choosing not recognise the concept of lineage at each weight class to sound smart and are only coming across as ignorantly snobbish.

The phrase "the man who beats the man" has history behind it.

Do you really want to learn that history or sit there and be contrarian while you tell me modern sentiments as if I, of the two of us, missed their precedence and then continuation in and throughout history?

I am not even a little bit unsure about the traditions Jax. I know them well.


How do you "man who beat the man" one lineage intertwined with the HW lineage into 16 new ones?

Gonna crown one man the heir of all that and the have every champion from every division have a go at him? That is how it was done before the bodies. That is the tradition lineal invokes.

Since it is ****ing illegal to do that Jax we just watch the division they all used to funnel into.

Why can't I compare monarchy to championship? Do you think we call them kings by chance?

Do you think man who beat the man reigns over all because it's simple?

Why do you argue when I've so much to teach? I want to teach you where man who beat the man came from but I don't reckon your mind is tuned for learning.

[Laligalaliga]

I wasn't active here at the time. Am i allowed to post links to other forums?

I could copy and paste my posts from when Ring stripped Fury, but, you'd still have to believe I didn't just type that BS posthaste.


I was at ESB/BF24 at the time. It was a big issue to them. I posted as GlaukosTheHammer.

I think that's about the best I can do without breaking rules. I trust you know what ESB is.

I can't play the role of a Wilder supporter on this forum at that time because I wasn't here. I don't know what they were posting before me. I didn't know there was other Wilder fans on this forum.

It is what it is, let's wait and see how things turn up.

[Marchegiano]

I am reading the response you got to your post from Jax and shaking my head... Hypocracy? does he know what that word means? YOu are trying, among other things, to explain to people who have decided that they do not want to listen, WHY the lineal is a concept engendered by the heavyweight division. Ray Corso spent the better part of years here explaining to the same idiots like Queeny, that the heavyweight division is an OPEN division, technically with no weight limits. The people you are arguing with do not even understand this idea M.

I doubt that Jax is willing to even consider your example of the monarchy. Is this a good analogy? Lets see? What state authority tells the queen/King who gets the throne next... presumably the person put upon the throne has to be the strongest...the best because the present monarch will not be able to issue a corrective from the grave. Finally, like the lineal, if the heredity transmission is smooth, the next in line has the best behind them to guarantee that succession is smooth...then nobody has to even envoke any particular clause. However if there is a problem with the succession, then there are traditions that determine the outcome.

Just like the lineal! When Ali was the champ nobody cared who the lineal was, whether Ali was the lineal, etc. The lineal is called up when necessary, JUST like when there is an issue with succession for the monarchy! In both cases, what makes these mechanisms special is that they do not make an appeal to some external burocracy, they use the strength of tradition that has worked for many many moons.

I often site the Japanese KoRyu ancient arts, the oldest of which have a traceable lineage from the the 1500's (Takenuchi Ryu). The only way these arts are verified, and they are verified by organizations that are fanatical in their need to document and verify...is by the art having a head of succession that is unbroken. There was no government bodies in the anarchy of Feudal Japan... But Tradition sufficed remarkably well. to the point that a fatally wounded Samurai would go so far as to pull a similar ranked, enemy solder aside, and with dying breaths perform the Menkyo Kudan to transfer his art to another succesor so it would not die.

My point is when we say the lineal is traditional, many people here are brainwashed to believe that because alphabet soup is sanctioned by an external agency (not directly involved in the sport), it is more real than traditions that have existed for generations.

Of course the idiots that spread this nonsense delight in doing so... I guess they believe they are doing a service to something?

Yeah, I thought I'd made a pretty good case.

Projecting is pretty normal. Cheaters are su****ious folk. Maybe i'm only thinking this as a reaction, but I reckon their reluctance has more to do with Fury and Wilder than anything else.

The thing they seem to always claim I'm doing is twisting history to fit a present narrative. Seems beyond them to recognize I'm a fan of Wilder and Fury because I am a fan of history and their present narratives are historically driven. So whenever I speak on history now I've a group who seem to look for Wilder/Fury transitives.

What type of fan would like hearing Wilder talk about a gladiator sport? Maybe that fella what talks about ancient boxing whenever he can?

Who would be into an Irishman from a line of Bare Knuckle travelers? Perhaps a fella who claims Yankee Sullivan was badass worthy of the title champion and that Peter Maher got screwed?

I like gladiators and pygmachia. That's what Wilder represents. I don't need to change history or do anything for him to represent it. I like Irish Bare Knuckle. Fury represents a by-gone era when Irish champions were feared for their skill and tongue.

They always claim I'm bending history, but, it's pretty clear who knows and who assumes around here.

Loved the bit about Japan.

[billeau2]

Why wouldn't it be on the line when the assignment is the guy that beat the guy.
What if penaitia had pulled a surprise win? Will he be denied the title because hez not one of the top guys?

It would... Homever was upset would lose their claim to the title. If it was the lineal then it would be the lineal title holder who was beat. It does not have to be difficult. If you and your brother are at a will for a rich aunt, the aunt might give you both an interest in the property. Maybe she says nephew 1 you get to live in the property the rest of your life, nephew 2 your family gets the property to do with as you wish. You both have a different claim to the property, different interests...You have a life estate and the other guy an estate in remainder.

If the lineal is beat then someone becomes the new lineal. The confusion comes because you want the other title holders to conform and they certainly should, but thats the problem! With all these agencies there is no reason to give up their paper champions, to determine the best. Do you see perhaps why under those conditions, the fans should say "Hey! screw the paper titles, we want the best guys to fight, and this fighter is the lineal champ." So the lineal when declared, becomes a way to assert that process by the fans. As M has told you, the lineal as a traditional title, has the strength of being the voice of the fans and being an ancient tradition.

Regarding Fury specifically, as the lineal he did not declare the title to avoid fighting the other guys, he declared it to put it on the line against one of the other guys considered at the top of the division.

[billeau2]

Yeah, I thought I'd made a pretty good case.

Projecting is pretty normal. Cheaters are su****ious folk. Maybe i'm only thinking this as a reaction, but I reckon their reluctance has more to do with Fury and Wilder than anything else.

The thing they seem to always claim I'm doing is twisting history to fit a present narrative. Seems beyond them to recognize I'm a fan of Wilder and Fury because I am a fan of history and their present narratives are historically driven. So whenever I speak on history now I've a group who seem to look for Wilder/Fury transitives.

What type of fan would like hearing Wilder talk about a gladiator sport? Maybe that fella what talks about ancient boxing whenever he can?

Who would be into an Irishman from a line of Bare Knuckle travelers? Perhaps a fella who claims Yankee Sullivan was badass worthy of the title champion and that Peter Maher got screwed?

I like gladiators and pygmachia. That's what Wilder represents. I don't need to change history or do anything for him to represent it. I like Irish Bare Knuckle. Fury represents a by-gone era when Irish champions were feared for their skill and tongue.

They always claim I'm bending history, but, it's pretty clear who knows and who assumes around here.

Loved the bit about Japan.

I would characterize what you posted as consistency. Good history always is based on consistent patterns that repeat and show themselves under specific conditions. But people's eyes become dulled!

[billeau2]

The phrase "the man who beats the man" has history behind it.

Do you really want to learn that history or sit there and be contrarian while you tell me modern sentiments as if I, of the two of us, missed their precedence and then continuation in and throughout history?

I am not even a little bit unsure about the traditions Jax. I know them well.


How do you "man who beat the man" one lineage intertwined with the HW lineage into 16 new ones?

Gonna crown one man the heir of all that and the have every champion from every division have a go at him? That is how it was done before the bodies. That is the tradition lineal invokes.

Since it is ****ing illegal to do that Jax we just watch the division they all used to funnel into.

Why can't I compare monarchy to championship? Do you think we call them kings by chance?

Do you think man who beat the man reigns over all because it's simple?

Why do you argue when I've so much to teach? I want to teach you where man who beat the man came from but I don't reckon your mind is tuned for learning.

Well what do you know? the tradition for every man to have a go...the heavyweight division in fact being an open division...Hummm? Can they make this leap?

And when we look at Henry the 8th for example, we see the later pics of him fat and distended. It might suprise people to know that he was a powerful knight, had an incredible physique, and was crippled in warrior games as a young man. Yes, the king had to at least make a show of being the best! The Pharoah himself had to show signs that he was descended from the Gods.

[Marchegiano]

Well what do you know? the tradition for every man to have a go...the heavyweight division in fact being an open division...Hummm? Can they make this leap?

And when we look at Henry the 8th for example, we see the later pics of him fat and distended. It might suprise people to know that he was a powerful knight, had an incredible physique, and was crippled in warrior games as a young man. Yes, the king had to at least make a show of being the best! The Pharoah himself had to show signs that he was descended from the Gods.

I really do not understand how folks reckon any other weight division can claim lineal ties.

The thing is, I really don't think these fellas actually want sanction body bull**** to be a consideration for lineage. I think they think they do because it has a transitive value to Fury, but, what none of them probably know is if we are to say OK, all the weight divisions have a lineage and their lineage begins when the first champion of their weight is crowned, those are all WBC champions. Do they really want to elevate the WBC? I don't think so because now your transitive is Wilder's claim that his belt is the most prestigious and historic rather than Fury's lineal claim. Juxtaposed to Joshua's unified elevating the WBC for Wilder seems like something Joshua fans wouldn't be too keen on.