Is James Toney the Shaq of Boxing?

[Dempsey-Louis]

Yes, that was it. And Toney seemed so out of place with the other guys, and they advertised him as a "future legend"

As a kid in 1969 I bought a football game that had future legend Green Bay Packer quarterback Don Horn replacing Bart Starr.

On the list were . . .

Colts -- Johnny Unitas
Browns -- Frank Ryan
Giants -- Fran Tarkenton
49ers -- John Brodie
Rams -- Roman Gabriel
Cowboys - Don Meredith
Jets -- Joe Namath
Redskins -- Sony Jergensen
Chiefs -- Len Dawson
Raiders -- Darryl Lamonica


and future legend Don Horn for the Green Bay Packers.

Wish I had kept the game.

[HENNY]

Work ethic, diet and potential wise, probably

[OctoberRed]

As a kid in 1969 I bought a football game that had future legend Green Bay Packer quarterback Don Horn replacing Bart Starr.

On the list were . . .

Colts -- Johnny Unitas
Browns -- Frank Ryan
Giants -- Fran Tarkenton
49ers -- John Brodie
Rams -- Roman Gabriel
Cowboys - Don Meredith
Jets -- Joe Namath
Redskins -- Sony Jergensen
Chiefs -- Len Dawson
Raiders -- Darryl Lamonica


and future legend Don Horn for the Green Bay Packers.

Wish I had kept the game.

You would have been able to sell in on Pawn Stars for $$$$.

[IronDanHamza]

With how long boxing history is... Is 200 really such a large number?

I know you're not a fan and you think he's overrated, fair enough. To me he's still a legend because of the fight he's been involved in.. Gatti is a legend to me, Ward is a legend to me, but at the end it's just terminology issue right? Might just as well use different word/s if that one you do not like "Memorable fighters"?
There's just not many modern fighters who approached the game the way that Toney had with the style, fighting anyone, anytime... Hell, even his underperformances made for unforgettable events (Tiberi)...

As for him being top 10 from 90 to 2010... I guess not, but I'll say this - he built more impressive resume in 1991 alone than Floyd Mayweather in his entire career... Sosa, Nunn, Johnson, Dell'Aquilla, McCallum....
He could've retired right there and then and have a career worth remembering.

Crazy, who does that nowadays? I know you think he lost some of those fights(I had Reggie edging him, but Toney beating Sosa clearly and edging McCallum), but I think even you have to acknowledge how insane of a schedule that is? There's a reason no one fights guys on this caliber and with those kind of diverse style and tactical minds back to back...

I wrote it here in the past when we discussed Toney's career, I believe - but to me - for James to have argument to win every single fight in his 1991 schedule, to me is extraordinary accomplishment - and just because he didn't have the same consistancy to his performances over the course of his career as some other champions, doesn't mean he's not equally great..

He was great in different way - I don't think there's one clear cut way of being great in the sport. He couldn't do what Hopkins did, staying solid for decades, but he could set the middleweight division on fire within a year of arriving on the world stage.

200 Boxing Legends? I don't know. Suppose it depends how we define a legend. I don't think Toney is an ATG much less a legend. And if he is an ATG (massive if) then at the very least he is near the bottom.

Meh, it's a decent run.

Sosa was unranked, he won but he struggled, Nunn was obviously a good win but he struggled, McCallum was a draw, Johnson very good fighter but he struggled badly lost IMO and DelAquila is pretty much a journeyman.

So officially he was 4-0-1 over those opponents and only 2 of the wins were against ranked opponents in which he struggled badly in both and the only one he didn't struggle in was against the journeyman.

So I don't know, I am not impressed by that run of performances.

[Dempsey-Louis]

With how long boxing history is... Is 200 really such a large number?

If I may throw my two cents in, there are 130+ fighters in the HOF (Modern category) and there looks to be another 125 in the Old Timers category plus 40 more on the Pioneer list. By that measure two hundred seems very realistic.

But for a different definition of the word legend, what if we ask a sports fan (who is not necessarily a fight fan) how many names (off the top of his head) he can come up with? I suspect the number would drop considerably.

I am not sure which better constitutes a legend.

[IronDanHamza]

Honestly I don't rate Toney as ATG either, he wasn't a full package on elite level, but had some qualities that enabled him to do things that not many fighters can do.


Men you're demanding.. If you're fighting on that level, - guys like McCallum, Reggie and Nunn, particulary back to back - you're suppose to struggle...


Pacquiao arguably lost to Marquez all 4 times - and was outboxed by worn down Morales all around his peak. Isn't his career great regardless?


Most of the fighters considered great, who didn't struggle in their prime, either avoided or didn't come across great (Prime) rivals - Think Mayweather, Monzon, Hopkins...

Look even at Ray Robinson right before his first retirement - 51/52.
Turpin twice, Bobo Olson, Graziano, Maxim - All tough fights, he struggled in each of those.

Anyway - it's all relative. There are obviously fighters who were better than Toney at their peak and who were more consistantly great.. I don't think there's as many fighters who could pull off what Toney did in his peak though, so I think your disregard for him is a bit disrespectful.


Just curious, do you consider Salvador Sanchez as ATG or legend? I think his resume could easily be disrespected or disregarded and who can be sure that if he kept fighting, he wouldn't soon move up and go all downhill fighting guys like Arguello or Chavez? Would that completely take away what he achieved at featherweight?



Cheers, I was actually looking up that number just before I read your post and couldn't find it.
You make great points. At the end it's terminology issue... I call Toney a legend because he's special fighter to me, with special career who achieved special things - in my eyes. So is McCallum, so is Khaosai Galaxy, so is Arturo Gatti, so is Joe Gans... All for different reason - but if you think Legend is wrong term then fine, just put different word in there and I think you all know what I mean.

You aren't supposed to struggle with all of them...

I don't think it's too much to ask obviously you are bound to hit bumps in the road as a fighter but not every time you take the car out.

Morales and Marquez are ATG's, Johnson and Nunn aren't even HOFers. Good fighters yes of course but they aren't anything special.

The difference is James Toney struggled consistently his entire career, from top to bottom.

Sanchez is a tough one because of how short his career was. But he did a lot in a short space of time.

What about James Toney's achievements do you consider "special"?

[IronDanHamza]

I think that's the bottom of difference of our view.
Morales and Marquez have better careers, but to me it comes down to opportunities due to being more marketable, having more of a push throughout their careers, getting more preferable match-ups etc. It's easier to succeed if powers that be want you to succeed.

I rate Nunn and Reggie above Marquez and Morales in terms of PFP greatness when we talk about abilities at their peak.
That's controversial, but when you think of Marquez vs Norwood and Morales vs Raheem... maybe not so much?

McCallum I'd put even above that...
Now I think - whether you agree with that or not, but just as a point - you can see where I'm coming from... Which is that James Toney, within 1 year - arguably beat 3 prime fighters - all of whom are better than anyone on the record of many guys considered ATG's... Floyd, Pacquiao included.

I totally totally disagree Morales and Marquez are in a different stratosphere to Nunn and Johnson. Not even close IMO.

McCallum yes I would agree with. He's an ATG but he also wasn't prime when Toney fought him and in my eyes first fight was a draw and second fight he lost (both close)

Well he beat two, arguably lost two.

Nunn and Johnson better wins than many people considered ATG's???? Again totally disagree.

But again what achievements of Toney's do you consider special? I see nothing special about his career.

[IronDanHamza]

First of all - what I wrote before. I think his resume at middleweight is amazing, particulary considering his short time at the weight - but that comes down to me obviously rating his opposition much higher than you do, so we won't come to an agreement there.

I also think his ability, after coming from Middleweight, to outlast Jirov at cruiserweight and then Holyfield(Way past it, but still solid at the time imo) was extraordinary.. Even what he did against Peter, standing toe to toe with him for the most part, while clearly suffering from brain damage at the time... Just a tough, tough men with some great qualities in terms of skillset and mindset..
Guys like Jacobs, Canelo or Charlo are studs in the game right now and they are Toney's size... now imagine them at Cruiserweight or against small heavyweights, standing their ground.... Not easy thing to do.

MW resume amazing? Interesting.

Draw with Williams, Draw with McCallum, lost to Tiberi.

Wins over Nunn and Johnson were good like previously discussed but a list of people beat Nunn and Johnson. It's not like they were elite fighters of their era.

IMO he lost to Johnson so to me he only has one good win there and that's Nunn.

Do not see how that's amazing actually it's pretty underwhelming especially if you consider that he was losing wide to Nunn aswell. Even if you go with the official decision with Johnson as I'll admit it was an either way fight I don't see how that is amazing. No HOF'ers, no dominant wins, loss's and draws to journeymen.

Lot's of fighters have started at MW and competed at HW. Don't see that as something special.

[chrisJS]

He's a legend of his era? Never heard of a "Legend of an era" and what does it take to be a legend of their era considering there is no way in hell he's Top 5 of his era. Is he even top 10? Probably not off the top of my head. Depends what you consider an era.

90-2010 he is not Top 10. So, that is a legend? Ok well there's a **** load of legends then.

1990-2010 I'd say the following are firmly better than Toney :-

Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Julio Cesar Chavez
Roy Jones
Bernard Hopkins
Floyd Mayweather
Juan Manuel Marquez
Manny Pacquaio

Then I think he's basically on the same level arguably better or arguably inferior to :-

Lennox Lewis
Felix Trinidad
Erik Morales
Marco Antonio Barrera
Ricardo Lopez
Joe Calzaghe

I'd consider him to be better than the following but they aren't far off :-

Mark Johnson
Chiquita Gonzalez
Michael Carbajal
Rafael Marquez
Kostya Tszyu
Shane Mosley
Oscar De La Hoya

Hard to define "legend" or even all-time greats but I'd consider Toney a great fighter who's possibly one of the top 10 of that particular area (anywhere from 9-15 for me). He had that weird spell for about 5-6 years after the Griffin fights until his next run that holds him back IMO because his 1991 was impressive and then the comeback in his 30's and Jirov win was superb.

[IronDanHamza]

1990-2010 I'd say the following are firmly better than Toney :-

Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Julio Cesar Chavez
Roy Jones
Bernard Hopkins
Floyd Mayweather
Juan Manuel Marquez
Manny Pacquaio

Then I think he's basically on the same level arguably better or arguably inferior to :-

Lennox Lewis
Felix Trinidad
Erik Morales
Marco Antonio Barrera
Ricardo Lopez
Joe Calzaghe

I'd consider him to be better than the following but they aren't far off :-

Mark Johnson
Chiquita Gonzalez
Michael Carbajal
Rafael Marquez
Kostya Tszyu
Shane Mosley
Oscar De La Hoya

Hard to define "legend" or even all-time greats but I'd consider Toney a great fighter who's possibly one of the top 10 of that particular area (anywhere from 9-15 for me). He had that weird spell for about 5-6 years after the Griffin fights until his next run that holds him back IMO because his 1991 was impressive and then the comeback in his 30's and Jirov win was superb.

I would without any question rank Morales and Barrera above him.

Others that I would rank above him from that list that I would consider arguable;

Trinidad
Oscar
Lewis
Mosley

What was weird about that spell from Griffin to Crusier? And how does it differ from any other spell in his career?