The Myth of bigger Heavyweights part 2

[IronDanHamza]

Obviously there are a load of factors behind punching power but it is clear that more force will be generated from 6 ounce gloves compared to 10 ounce ones. Added to that is the quality of gloves, those 1930s and 40s gloves did not keep their structural integrity for the duration of the fight like todays gloves do so the cushioning-effect diminished as the fight progressed. Louis had awesome power for his day but I wouldn't be surprised if he was using one of the variety of todays 10 ounce gloves that his power wouldn't appear quite so impressive. Of course this is hard to know with any certainty.

I think a few of Klitschko's opponents might have been more talented than Conn. Conn was good though, he moved very well and was certainly one of Louis' best opponents and one of the finest of the era.

You know an interesting thing I read was a sports science study said that actually heavier gloves generate more force.

There is a youtube video where they compare MMA Gloves and Boxing gloves. 4oz vs I think 10 oz.

I don't see how that's possible but just to put an interesting point in there.

Conn was a great fighter but too small for HW.

[Tom Cruise]

You know an interesting thing I read was a sports science study said that actually heavier gloves generate more force.

There is a youtube video where they compare MMA Gloves and Boxing gloves. 4oz vs I think 10 oz.

I don't see how that's possible but just to put an interesting point in there.

Yeah more force just due to extra weight I think, but i dont think it makes up for the drop in accuracy and speed, nor the fact that the extra force is dissipated over a bigger area.

[Ray Corso]

100lb wrecking ball vs 150lb ball, what does more damage
when swung with equal speed?

You need to be specific on the glove brands because the weight at the fist along with at the wrist is drastically different from maker to maker.
Also the thinnest of material when a fist is clenched (first finger joint)also determines the grip in the glove.
Experienced fighters always want what they consider to be the right "feel". The feel is different from fighter to fighter.
The smaller gloves surrounding the fist has more to do with defense than offensive power.
When you watch fights from the 70's back you'll see a lot of "open fists defense". The width of today's gloves allow the current fighters to just fold back to their jaws for defense.
Great punchers don't care what size they use they want the right feel.

Ray

[Tom Cruise]

I mean who is good in the division that is normal sized?

This is an important question for me. I dont see any small HW's or even cruiserweights with the talent, heart, conditioning, ring IQ of Ali, Frazier, Louis, Foreman etc

Look at a guy like 'Fast' Eddie Chambers who moved his feet like he weighed 300lbs or David Haye who cant defend or punch without throwing himself wildly off balance.

Usyk looks the best CW in the world to me and he is hardly boxing like a prime Ali is he?

Imagine Joe Frazier with his conditioning, his ring craft and his power in todays CW division. He would obliterate the lot of them

[billeau2]

You know an interesting thing I read was a sports science study said that actually heavier gloves generate more force.

There is a youtube video where they compare MMA Gloves and Boxing gloves. 4oz vs I think 10 oz.

I don't see how that's possible but just to put an interesting point in there.

Conn was a great fighter but too small for HW.

As said before to many... sometimes science trumps the obvious. It appears that smaller gloves would make a fighter of today a monster but that has to be looked at carefully. with respect to this observation the reason for this is because the actual amount of force generated is controlled by the medium of exchange... the hand!

You have all this great power and structure that is delivered by a few small bones held together. Bigger gloves allow a fighter to not worry about the hand and punch harder. In theory people in many arts condition the points on the hand because the smaller the area the greater the force per a square inch delivered. Boxers in the old days also conditioned the hands for this reason. Many boxers break their hands in street fights because the naked hand cannot uphold the amount of force generated with a gloved hand.

[IronDanHamza]

As said before to many... sometimes science trumps the obvious. It appears that smaller gloves would make a fighter of today a monster but that has to be looked at carefully. with respect to this observation the reason for this is because the actual amount of force generated is controlled by the medium of exchange... the hand!

You have all this great power and structure that is delivered by a few small bones held together. Bigger gloves allow a fighter to not worry about the hand and punch harder. In theory people in many arts condition the points on the hand because the smaller the area the greater the force per a square inch delivered. Boxers in the old days also conditioned the hands for this reason. Many boxers break their hands in street fights because the naked hand cannot uphold the amount of force generated with a gloved hand.

Well that is the reason Boxers began to wear gloves in the first place. To stop their hands from breaking.

It's an interesting conversation, I have had many debates about it actually with a friend of mine who is into UFC (and science funnily enough)

Why is it that big KO artists in UFC come to boxing and seemingly have no power what so ever? Mike Perry and Conor McGregor, massive KO% in UFC yet looked like they started throwing punches for the first time a week prior to their boxing debuts.

Fascinating.

The gloves a factor? Or no?

[JAB5239]

You know an interesting thing I read was a sports science study said that actually heavier gloves generate more force.

There is a youtube video where they compare MMA Gloves and Boxing gloves. 4oz vs I think 10 oz.

I don't see how that's possible but just to put an interesting point in there.

Conn was a great fighter but too small for HW.

When I use to fight we sparred with 16oz gloves and they hurt worse than the 10oz gloves we fought with. Have never looked into the science, but this is my own personal opinion and observation.

[them_apples]

1) As I understand it you are incorrect about the gloves Joe Louis wore during his title reign, it was mostly 6 ounce gloves. I asked joeandthebums about this a couple of years ago here:

https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15514730&postcount=8

He seems to know his stuff as when i've checked out other things he's written he has been correct.
This newspaper article mentions both Louis-Conn title fights using 6 oz gloves.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1734&dat=19481215&id=UdgbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=sFAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4017,4187870

Now it is possible that Louis only wore 6 oz gloves for the fights joeandthebums mentioned and wore 8 oz for all the rest but i'm not sure there is any reason to think that unless you have evidence for that.

2) Again as I understand it the gloves of today that are horsehair are not purely horsehair but a mix with foam, including the Reyes gloves you have. So those 8 oz Reyes gloves you own are going to be quite a bit different to the 8 oz horsehair gloves of the 1930s and 40s.

3) Also it is not just the use of horsehair that is relevant but the quality of the gloves. The gloves of the 1930s did not sustain their structure as the fight progressed in the way that later manufactured gloves have. Essentially the manufactured gloves of today are of a higher standard.

4) Let me be clear about what i'm not saying, i'm not saying that Louis didn't possess a lot of power, the difference between punching someone with 10 oz modern day foam gloves and punching someone with 6 oz horsehair gloves of the 1930s is not the difference between being Paulie Malignaggi versus being Julian Jackson, however it is still a big difference nevertheless.

5) Why should easier times lower the quality? Fighting sometimes multiple times a month out of economic necessity and with constant injuries does not make you a better fighter and that was what plenty of fighters from the first half of the century were dealing with.

6) The competitive pool may never have been higher than it is currently, or at least recently.

7) The differences between amateur and pro boxing are no where near as large as I often see people claim, I mean do you watch amateur boxing at the highest level, Olympics, World Championships etc? People who say that often say that the amateur style is just a style to land one punch and then run away as if every prominent amateur boxer of recent years fought like Zou Shiming as amateurs.

8) The Olympics is a big deal and for most boxers from around the world the prospect of winning an Olympic Gold medal is a far bigger deal than becoming a pro-world champion.

You are right it was near the end of his career that 8 oz came into effect. 6 oz were the norm for a while.

That being said the 8 oz reyes have you could hurt anyone with, the knuckles shoot right through them.

[Tom Cruise]

Well that is the reason Boxers began to wear gloves in the first place. To stop their hands from breaking.

It's an interesting conversation, I have had many debates about it actually with a friend of mine who is into UFC (and science funnily enough)

Why is it that big KO artists in UFC come to boxing and seemingly have no power what so ever? Mike Perry and Conor McGregor, massive KO% in UFC yet looked like they started throwing punches for the first time a week prior to their boxing debuts.

Fascinating.

The gloves a factor? Or no?

Thats the thing about power though, you can punch as hard as you like on the heavybag, but in a fight, a big part of what makes a great power puncher is their ability to land with that power. To be able to coordinate their body in the right way in the face of a moving target. Thats where footwork, ring IQ, timing and ring generalship comes in. Thats why Joe Louis is, for me, the greatest puncher ever. Its not that he generated the most force, its that he was so brilliant at setting up and delivering his power.

Conor Mcgregor to me looked like he just wasnt sure where his target was going to be and so had to take all the steam off his shots to get them to land. You see the same with power punchers all the time as they move up in class. Its why GGG didnt look especially powerful against Canelo despite it being proven again and again that he can punch like a mule kicks.

A good demonstration my old coach used to do was using a tennis ball, he would throw it to one of us and ask us to hit as hard as we could. At first he would throw it the same pace, same angle and trajectory every time, then as it went on he would start to mix it up. At first you can turn your body into the shot and punch through the target because you know when and where it will be, when he starts mixing up the speed and stuff that becomes impossible. You basically tighten up and start using arm punches to make sure you hit the target. Was quite a good way to demostrate what good defence can achieve and how difficult it is to land with power and it always stayed with me.

Power in boxing is a fascinating subject to me. From the physiological (how ya body is put together), psychological (the confidence and attitude to punch with mean intentions in the face of danger) and technical (technique, ring craft etc) there are so many facets to it.

[billeau2]

Well that is the reason Boxers began to wear gloves in the first place. To stop their hands from breaking.

It's an interesting conversation, I have had many debates about it actually with a friend of mine who is into UFC (and science funnily enough)

Why is it that big KO artists in UFC come to boxing and seemingly have no power what so ever? Mike Perry and Conor McGregor, massive KO% in UFC yet looked like they started throwing punches for the first time a week prior to their boxing debuts.

Fascinating.

The gloves a factor? Or no?

Most people do not know that and assume it is protection against the punch. In fact, the first so called "mufflers" were used in exhibitions of the "manly art of self defense."

With punching different techniques show very differently depending on what is worn on the hand. A classic pre-1920's lead, where the arm hardly moves and the hand stays upright would barely register, if at all, with the larger gloves.

When I was working with MMA guys they tended to throw punches with the weight very much on the back leg, probably because they did not want to get grabbed at the waist. This is bad form to boxing, how can power be affected when the weight is held back? what hapens is that the punches are winged harder, what is an arm punch to compensate for the lack of weight behind the punches. Thats just an observation I noticed...classic head hunting lol.