For those of you who put think Marciano is overrated

[Rusty Tromboni]

Marciano is one of those fighters who is equally under and overrated by fans. His legacy is somewhere between the two. A small HW who exceeded expectations, and did more with less.

I think he's like Columbus. He suffers for being Italian. Non-White people don't like what they perceive he did to them. Other White people aren't in a rush to defend him. But to those who identify with him, they fiercely defend him. And now they defend him all the more because they consider him under attack.

Canzoneri, Pep, The Midge, Corbett 3, Kansas, Aposostoli... they were all Italian, too, and each as good as Marciano, some much better. But they weren't Heavyweights, so they're both less threatening and less easily glorified. One almost begets the other.

[GhostofDempsey]

I think he's like Columbus. He suffers for being Italian. Non-White people don't like what they perceive he did to them. Other White people aren't in a rush to defend him. But to those who identify with him, they fiercely defend him. And now they defend him all the more because they consider him under attack.

Canzoneri, Pep, The Midge, Corbett 3, Kansas, Aposostoli... they were all Italian, too, and each as good as Marciano, some much better. But they weren't Heavyweights, so they're both less threatening and less easily glorified. One almost begets the other.

The thing about Marciano, if he finished his career 49-1, no one would talk about him, at least not in the same tone or context. There wouldn’t be any controversy surrounding him.

[The Old LefHook]

Rocky brought the milk, there's no doubt about it!

[billeau2]

Hahahaha!

Let me guess, you taught MJ how to Moonwalk?

That's actually an essential Kata for making Black Belt right? That one, and "Put the Money on the Table"... sorry I don't know the Japanese translation.

Rather than run away, why not man up and just admit you were wrong? That's actually the better Avenue for saving face.


Again, what planet are you from? This is my first time hearing that Gibbons, Carp and Sharkey aren't ATGs. And Willard demolished Johnson, whom you tell us was great. In any event, Willard was a great physical specimen. And Dempsey's slaughter of that giant in Toledo might be the most famous fight in Boxing history.

You looooove make long ranting posts, why not make one that people will actually read? Stop running and just answer the questions.

Pookie... such hostility. The last vacation wasn't long enough? Did you take the time to read up and learn some basic concepts like how to cut the ring off yet? ATG is an elite category reserved for maybe 10% of the fighters... Look it up.

Well your right about one thing... you obviously did not read my long post. Why respond if the post is over your head?

[Willie Pep 229]

The point you make about Marciano is actually part of a bigger issue about the competition faced by great heavyweights. Generally speaking, if one looks carefully at the reigns of great heavyweights, seldom did they face unrelenting, great competition. As a matter of fact, aside from Ali and a few others, most heavyweights were lucky to face off against a few fellow greats. Just look at who great fighters like Liston, Johnson, Patterson, Jeffries, Dempsey, (etc) actually fought.

Lets take Liston for example, he fought a young Ali, before Ali was established as a great fighter, and he fought against a Mean of well trained, excellent fighters... Williams for example. or how about Dempsey? Tunney, who was an ATG, and who was an incredible fighter, as really perhaps the greatest light heavy... aside from Tunney, we see a mean of excellent, well trained guys, like Sharkey, on Dempsey's ledger.

I would say that Marciano, like Mayweather fought great fighters, just not at their greatest. Does not detract from his wins IMO.

Reading Rocco's post and then your post makes me wonder, has there ever been a HW situation where things were Goldie Locks ( just right). We seem to find something wrong historically with every match-up.

Even when the unexpected thing happened we still went into the fight thinking the fight somehow wrong e.g. Ali-Foreman; Braddock-Baer.

Were there great match-ups where people weren't making excuses before the fight started? I am finding it hard to come up with them.

Even before the first Fury-Wilder fight all we heard about was Fury's lay-off. I guess the second fight came without excuses (of course until it was over that is, but that's OK, I just looking for match-ups that were thought true pick-ems going in; fights without pre-stated excuses.)

Tyson-Holyfield I, maybe

[Rusty Tromboni]

Pookie... such hostility. The last vacation wasn't long enough? Did you take the time to read up and learn some basic concepts like how to cut the ring off yet? ATG is an elite category reserved for maybe 10% of the fighters... Look it up.

Well your right about one thing... you obviously did not read my long post. Why respond if the post is over your head?

Hostility!?

My bad!

I didn't realize confronting you with the facts was an act of aggression. You fruits have a name for it, though, right? Micro-aggressions... is that right?

Sorry to intrude on your Safe Space. Maybe go complain to AOC about me, and she'll help you feel empowered?

[The Old LefHook]

Marciano's defensive wizardry is shamefully undervalued and consistently minimized. If guys like Clay, Moore and Walcott say you are hard to hit--guess what--you are, mǝn. He was a T-rex for reach, but hard to reach. It was always longer arms trying to hit him, which he gave so much trouble. Everyone was built like a gorilla next to the Rock.

He would wear down the majority of today's overgrown galoots with stamina and evasiveness, mǝn, then move in once they were easy sides of meat. It does not take but a few rounds for the big boys to huff and puff like buffalo. Meanwhile, Rock is now ready to fight. He is warmed up. He wears 'em down with defense then moves in with offense when they are helpless slabs, mǝn.

[Rusty Tromboni]

The thing about Marciano, if he finished his career 49-1, no one would talk about him, at least not in the same tone or context. There wouldn’t be any controversy surrounding him.

That's really interesting.

And probably pretty accurate.

There's a strong argument that Archer went 49-0. He really didn't sell with the judges. Guys who appeared to be outclassed got their hand raised.

Since he didn't have the luck Marciano, Holmes and Mayweather had with the matchmaking and judges, he's not discussed alongside them. But it's safe to say he was better than them. Still, nobody talks about Joey Archer these days.

[billeau2]

Reading Rocco's post and then your post makes me wonder, has there ever been a HW situation where things were Goldie Locks ( just right). We seem to find something wrong historically with every match-up.

Even when the unexpected thing happened we still went into the fight thinking the fight somehow wrong e.g. Ali-Foreman; Braddock-Baer.

Were there great match-ups where people weren't making excuses before the fight started? I am finding it hard to come up with them.

Even before the first Fury-Wilder fight all we heard about was Fury's lay-off. I guess the second fight came without excuses (of course until it was over that is, but that's OK, I just looking for match-ups that were thought true pick-ems going in; fights without pre-stated excuses.)

Tyson-Holyfield I, maybe

That is part of the point I am trying to make... Maybe a sense of the general level of competition in the division, at the time... and maybe changing expectations to where we don't ever expect a perfect training camp, a fighter showing up with no injuries, etc. when guys were fighting all the time, they could never have been with no injuries, etc...

Pep, given Tyson's general state of mind, his prison situation, etc... I don't know if that is a good example, lol.

[Marchegiano]

Reading Rocco's post and then your post makes me wonder, has there ever been a HW situation where things were Goldie Locks ( just right). We seem to find something wrong historically with every match-up.

Even when the unexpected thing happened we still went into the fight thinking the fight somehow wrong e.g. Ali-Foreman; Braddock-Baer.

Were there great match-ups where people weren't making excuses before the fight started? I am finding it hard to come up with them.

Even before the first Fury-Wilder fight all we heard about was Fury's lay-off. I guess the second fight came without excuses (of course until it was over that is, but that's OK, I just looking for match-ups that were thought true pick-ems going in; fights without pre-stated excuses.)

Tyson-Holyfield I, maybe

I still don't understand how Matthews isn't the perfect contender. He's not even listed as a good win by most accounts. I don't know of anyone else who stopped a 55+ win streak of a peer on their way to a title. Maybe not a perfect fight, because stakes are not high enough for the type of fight you're mentioning, but, for it's level I think it is pretty damn perfect and I don't understand why it's so forgotten.


Why LaStarza was fought in the first place is forgotten

No one really knows who Rex Layne even was let alone why he had to be KO'd.

Harry Kid Matthews though, that's a bit more than being popular. Matthews had the hype, he had the record, he had earned his shot at the elim and unlike most of Marciano's competition he did not go on a losing streak and retire five fights or less.

Matthews losses include sub-HW losses to guys with winning records and 100s more fight experience early in Kid's career, Marciano, and ****ell who probably is the only overachiever on Marciano's record. The only man who was meant to be easy was hard for Marciano to put away.

I think Harry's as perfect as you get for contender vs contender figuring out who fights the champ level of competition and I think he's largely forgotten because he's hard to argue against.


Fury fought Hammer

Wlad fought Peter

Dempsey fought Gunboat

Mike - Marvis (I think, maybe I should look up elims)

Joe Louis? Who the hell is Natie Brown?

Okay, now I'm just feeling more ignorant than right, but, I think Marciano might have one of the best elims in a career period but no one gives a ****. It's damn near perfect.

Imagine how much more Hammer would mean with a 55+ win streak stopped by Fury then Hammer goes on to lose to Wilder a few times and ends his career with win over an ancient Wlad. I realize he's not a prime Frazier for a resume or anything, but, people would talk about that win like it is great.