For those of you who put think Marciano is overrated

[ShoulderRoll]

Wanted to resurrect these posts.

[ShoulderRoll]

An informative thread.

[billeau2]

Heres some facts to defend my boy Marciano against all of you who underrate him and say he fought only old fighters out of their prime, and smaller heavyweights and so on.


"Rocky fought only old fighters"

All fighters fight older fighters. Unless boxing starts seperating by age as well as weight, such will always be the case.
You fight the old ones on your way up, and if you stay too long, you fight the young ones on your way down. Rocky had three key fights against past-prime fighters which are always brought up by the critics; Joe Louis, Jersey Joe Walcott, and Archie Moore. Why did he fight them?

Well, he had to fight Louis, as both were seeking a title shot. Marciano did not want to fight Joe, whom he admired, and in his dressing room prior to the bout said, "This is the last guy on earth I want to fight."

Walcott was the champion, so that was an unavoidable fight, too. Even the critics will agree you must fight the champion unless he steps down or retires, as Rocky did. Walcott wasn't ready to retire.

Moore demanded and campaigned for the fight. Rocky had not sought a fight with Archie and was ready to retire. Forced into the fight by Moore, Marciano made sure nobody would doubt he won his final fight.

Ezzard Charles was only two years older than Rocky; hardly in another age bracket.

Roland LaStarza fought from 1947-58 and Don ****ell from 1946-55, so they were contemporaries of Marciano.

The point you make about Marciano is actually part of a bigger issue about the competition faced by great heavyweights. Generally speaking, if one looks carefully at the reigns of great heavyweights, seldom did they face unrelenting, great competition. As a matter of fact, aside from Ali and a few others, most heavyweights were lucky to face off against a few fellow greats. Just look at who great fighters like Liston, Johnson, Patterson, Jeffries, Dempsey, (etc) actually fought.

Lets take Liston for example, he fought a young Ali, before Ali was established as a great fighter, and he fought against a Mean of well trained, excellent fighters... Williams for example. or how about Dempsey? Tunney, who was an ATG, and who was an incredible fighter, as really perhaps the greatest light heavy... aside from Tunney, we see a mean of excellent, well trained guys, like Sharkey, on Dempsey's ledger.

I would say that Marciano, like Mayweather fought great fighters, just not at their greatest. Does not detract from his wins IMO.

[Rusty Tromboni]

The point you make about Marciano is actually part of a bigger issue about the competition faced by great heavyweights. Generally speaking, if one looks carefully at the reigns of great heavyweights, seldom did they face unrelenting, great competition. As a matter of fact, aside from Ali and a few others, most heavyweights were lucky to face off against a few fellow greats. Just look at who great fighters like Liston, Johnson, Patterson, Jeffries, Dempsey, (etc) actually fought.

Dempsey didn't fight great competition!?!?!?

Willard
Carpentier
Sharkey
Gibbons
Tunney

I'm not sure what there is to complain about.... The bigger problem is that he was largely inactive. Even Brennan wasn't terrible. And Firpo was pretty dangerous. Granted, Brennan didn't suffer another blow out loss, as anticipated, and Firpo gave Dempsey a scare when he pushed him out of the ring. But he still won those fights by stoppage.

Lets take Liston for example, he fought a young Ali, before Ali was established as a great fighter, and he fought against a Mean of well trained, excellent fighters... Williams for example.

And you wonder why most your time is spent confined to a straight jacket.

Tell us, please, what made cleveland williams great.

I would say that Marciano, like Mayweather fought great fighters, just not at their greatest. Does not detract from his wins IMO.

Hmmm... maybe visit BoxRec before posting? What was wrong with Marciano's competition? Moore, Charles and Walcott were all at the top of their game, or their abouts.

I see clowns try to discredit Marciano as having fought smaller men past their prime. But no one will actually confront the fact that their records and the pundits at the time don't reveal that.

On the contrary, he ruined fighters.

[billeau2]

Dempsey didn't fight great competition!?!?!?

Willard
Carpentier
Sharkey
Gibbons
Tunney

I'm not sure what there is to complain about.... The bigger problem is that he was largely inactive. Even Brennan wasn't terrible. And Firpo was pretty dangerous. Granted, Brennan didn't suffer another blow out loss, as anticipated, and Firpo gave Dempsey a scare when he pushed him out of the ring. But he still won those fights by stoppage.





And you wonder why most your time is spent confined to a straight jacket.

Tell us, please, what made cleveland williams great.




Hmmm... maybe visit BoxRec before posting? What was wrong with Marciano's competition? Moore, Charles and Walcott were all at the top of their game, or their abouts.

I see clowns try to discredit Marciano as having fought smaller men past their prime. But no one will actually confront the fact that their records and the pundits at the time don't reveal that.

On the contrary, he ruined fighters.

Pookie, before going into attack mode...read the post, it helps immeasurably when responding. Why don't you slow down, read what I wrote...

My point on the whole was to look at how we evaluate competition in the heavy weight division. When we compare the rivalries, the ATG's that fought each other regularly in the mnore ubiquitious divisions, it is different for a heavy weight...

Dempsey's most intense challenge was Tunney who went up and became a great heavyweight to fight Dempsey. Carpentier was also coming up... remember that point I mentioned? Gibbons as well, if I recollect correctly. Regarding Willard and Sharkey they were tough, excellent fighters, just not ATG material. And this is pretty par for the course for most heavyweight champs.

Never said Williams was great... Williams in a general sense was another excellent fighter, but not an ATG to pin one's hat on regarding a great rivalry.

Again... NEVER SAID ANYTHING WAS WRONG WITH MARCIANO'S COMPETITION! Damn... do you read the posts? I cited Marciano as an exception with a different issue, one similar to Mayweather who never faced an ATG in prime years.

[DeeMoney]

Couple things always weird me out about Marciano's career. First off, why did he move back down the ladder after the first La Starza fight? I mean he built his way up the ranks and lands a big step up fight with La Starza, has a split decision. Then goes back down the ranks for another year-and-a-half, and nine fights, fighting against lesser competition before moving back up to fight Rex Layne.

I don't know why he did this, but have had a couple of thoughts. Either his trainers and handlers didn't like what they saw with his first step up in competition and felt he needed to improve things. Or, that was just the politics of boxing back then. If anyone knows why I'd appreciate the insight.

Also, dude retired at 31. I get he wanted to spend time with his family, but it does protect him from a post prime regression that always stick in people's mind.

[Noelanthony]

i know it's not going to change their minds about Marciano figured I would post anyway and just show them what they are saying is completly biased based on what they have heard/seen and otherwise come to believe.

Butterbean knocks him out in 3 rounds. No on a serious note you put some effort in illustrating your opinion I can only respect you for that. I’m not really a fan of Rocky but he was never beat in the ring and I never knew he beat joe Louis

[QueensburyRules]

Couple things always weird me out about Marciano's career. First off, why did he move back down the ladder after the first La Starza fight? I mean he built his way up the ranks and lands a big step up fight with La Starza, has a split decision. Then goes back down the ranks for another year-and-a-half, and nine fights, fighting against lesser competition before moving back up to fight Rex Layne.

I don't know why he did this, but have had a couple of thoughts. Either his trainers and handlers didn't like what they saw with his first step up in competition and felt he needed to improve things. Or, that was just the politics of boxing back then. If anyone knows why I'd appreciate the insight.

Also, dude retired at 31. I get he wanted to spend time with his family, but it does protect him from a post prime regression that always stick in people's mind.

- -Retiring while holding one of the most iconic records in boxing ain't a flaw.

Had a bad back.

[GhostofDempsey]

Marciano is one of those fighters who is equally under and overrated by fans. His legacy is somewhere between the two. A small HW who exceeded expectations, and did more with less.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Pookie, before going into attack mode...read the post, it helps immeasurably when responding. Why don't you slow down, read what I wrote...

My point on the whole was to look at how we evaluate competition in the heavy weight division. When we compare the rivalries, the ATG's that fought each other regularly in the mnore ubiquitious divisions, it is different for a heavy weight...

Dempsey's most intense challenge was Tunney who went up and became a great heavyweight to fight Dempsey. Carpentier was also coming up... remember that point I mentioned? Gibbons as well, if I recollect correctly. Regarding Willard and Sharkey they were tough, excellent fighters, just not ATG material. And this is pretty par for the course for most heavyweight champs.

Never said Williams was great... Williams in a general sense was another excellent fighter, but not an ATG to pin one's hat on regarding a great rivalry.

Again... NEVER SAID ANYTHING WAS WRONG WITH MARCIANO'S COMPETITION! Damn... do you read the posts? I cited Marciano as an exception with a different issue, one similar to Mayweather who never faced an ATG in prime years.

Hahahaha!

Let me guess, you taught MJ how to Moonwalk?

That's actually an essential Kata for making Black Belt right? That one, and "Put the Money on the Table"... sorry I don't know the Japanese translation.

Rather than run away, why not man up and just admit you were wrong? That's actually the better Avenue for saving face.


Again, what planet are you from? This is my first time hearing that Gibbons, Carp and Sharkey aren't ATGs. And Willard demolished Johnson, whom you tell us was great. In any event, Willard was a great physical specimen. And Dempsey's slaughter of that giant in Toledo might be the most famous fight in Boxing history.

You looooove make long ranting posts, why not make one that people will actually read? Stop running and just answer the questions.