Rocky Marciano: Read this before smeone makes you look ****** with the facts!

[hemichromis]

i agree that rocky was better than alot of people give him credit for but i dont think he is as goodas you think

joe louis was way past his prime when he fought marciano and i cant see anyof the others mentioned being in the top 20 or 30 boxers of all time

[Kid Achilles]

You can't see Ezzard Charles being a top 20 boxer? You are a fool. He's top ten P4P material, and certainly a top 20 heavyweight.

[BKM-]

People just dont know..

[butterfly1964]

Joe Louis did not have an awesome defense. He wasn't hit all that much in his prime because he had what were probably the greatest offensive skills of any heavyweight. He was not as slick as Johnson, Charles or Joe Walcott. Have you even seen Louis fight? He was a stalker with very good reflexes but his defense is not what sticks out as his most outstanding characteristic. He was skilled defensively, he could parry shots and had good head movement, true, but he was not even close to one of the best defensive boxers of all time.

What made Louis great was his picture perfect execution of all of his punches, his handspeed, and brutal and very accurate punching power. If you had an opening in your defense, he would find it.

Butterfly you keep talking about Joe Louis's defense but have you ever seen the guy fight?

kid achilles, i wouldn't be talking about joe louis if i've never seen him fight. i have like ten of his fights and i've seen about twenty. it's mostly his stance that makes his defense so special. the way he would position his hands made it pretty easy for him to deflect shots coming his way, and it was hard to land some hard shots on louis like that.

[K-DOGG]

Yaman...it just occurred to me after re-reading your post that you were Not calling ME the ****head. I thought you were calling me a ****head because I disagreed with your synopsis that Butterfly was a racist. My bad.

Apologies mate. I misunderstood you and returned the misconceived comment. I do sincerely apologize.

[SABBATH]

kid achilles, i wouldn't be talking about joe louis if i've never seen him fight. i have like ten of his fights and i've seen about twenty. it's mostly his stance that makes his defense so special. the way he would position his hands made it pretty easy for him to deflect shots coming his way, and it was hard to land some hard shots on louis like that.

Louis was decked and staggered enough to make me question just how great his defence was. If he had such a great defence and was that hard to hit yet was decked that many times he must have one hell of a weak chin, a theory which I don't subscribe to. Louis was in enough fights where he was hit enough to question whether his defence was awesome or just good and technically sound.

Now Jack Johnson raises a different argument. Before telling me what a great defence he had re-watch his fights and focus on the opponents who were throwing the punches at him that he was able to avoid. I don't see alot of his opponents double jabbing, mixing their attack, throwing 2 & 3 punch combinations or even feinting. I do see his opponents often carrying their hands down by their waists and throwing one punch at a time. Jim Jeffries had some semblance of a style fighting out of a crouch with his chin tucked behind the shoulder but even his left hand is kept low. I won't however judge Jeffries merit on that fight as we all know the circumstances of him coming out of retirement for that fight.

Referees of that era allowed the fighters to clinch then hold and hit which Johnson was an expert at, especially with the right uppercut. Johnson's defence was based alot on his catching punches with open gloves then holding his opponents upper arms in the clinches. I don't see alot of slipping and rolling with punches although in the Willard fight he does duck under alot of head shots particularly when Willard had him against the ropes.

[butterfly1964]

Now Jack Johnson raises a different argument. Before telling me what a great defence he had re-watch his fights and focus on the opponents who were throwing the punches at him that he was able to avoid. I don't see alot of his opponents double jabbing, mixing their attack, throwing 2 & 3 punch combinations or even feinting.

exactly. johnson's opponents weren't as skilled as louis' opponents, so based on that, i'd say louis had the better defense.

[Kid Achilles]

That's a ****ty argument and just so full of wild assumption and conjecture that it can be thrown out immediately. Johnson proved himself to be extremely hard to hit clean in his prime. Yeah he was nailed with some good shots by such sharpshooters as Joe Choysnki, and he didn't have the best chin, but he was so adept at picking off shots with his gloves and controlling the clinches. When you make a career out of sitting back, flat footed, and letting the opponent pretty much fight you as aggresively as they can, you better have amazing reflexes, balance, and defensive skill. Johnson had all of these things.

[butterfly1964]

That's a ****ty argument and just so full of wild assumption and conjecture that it can be thrown out immediately. Johnson proved himself to be extremely hard to hit clean in his prime. Yeah he was nailed with some good shots by such sharpshooters as Joe Choysnki, and he didn't have the best chin, but he was so adept at picking off shots with his gloves and controlling the clinches. When you make a career out of sitting back, flat footed, and letting the opponent pretty much fight you as aggresively as they can, you better have amazing reflexes, balance, and defensive skill. Johnson had all of these things.

i'm not doubting johnson's skill, it's just that i think louis had to go against better more skilled fighters, so i would be inclined to give louis more credit.

[SABBATH]

Yeah he was nailed with some good shots by such sharpshooters as Joe Choysnki, and he didn't have the best chin, but he was so adept at picking off shots with his gloves and controlling the clinches. When you make a career out of sitting back, flat footed, and letting the opponent pretty much fight you as aggresively as they can, you better have amazing reflexes, balance, and defensive skill. Johnson had all of these things.

Again, you have to consider whose shots he was picking off. I've seen his fights with Burns, Ketchel, Jeffries, Flynn, Moran and Willard. Now with all due respect to these fighters of yesteryear, I see very little in their styles and apparent abilities that would require great defensive mastery to avoid their punches. Flynn and Burns in particular look inept while Jeffries shows only a hint of what he may have been in his prime. I fail to see any of Johnson's opponents feint, jab, throw combinations, mix their attack or present angles. To these eyes they attack straight on at a measured pace and more often are content to clinch and wrestle after throwing a couple of shots.

Against these fighters Johnson did demonstrate an ability to avoid getting hit clean punches but seriously, can you see Louis, Ali, Holyfield, Holmes, Walcott, Charles etc...having difficulty avoiding the punches of Johnson's title fight opponents?