Rocky Marciano VS Wladimir Klitschko.

[Dr. Z]

I don't know why you have addressed this to me, I don't give Rocky a chance here.
However,Frazier was barely 5'11"and ,at his best 205lbs. Moore was the same weight as Rocky, 188lbs+1/4lb

We may agree on this. He would absolutely crush sub 200 pound Jack Johnson too. The heavyweight game has changed over the years. Leave the past in the past I say.

[them_apples]

Marciano would murder Wladmir. Because being big doesn’t make you good. The only reason people pick Wlad is because he’s big. There is hardly any evidence that this should carry the day, yet people continue to to spout this idea.

Marciano is incredibly strong and conditioned, his style is very very difficult to deal with (the crouch). Every round is maximal effort, a pace hardly anyone could sustain, even smaller men could not. The beating a stationary Wlad would sustain from the Rock would be immense.

while everyone tries to visualize Wlads reach somehow keeping the Rock at bay, the opposite would be true. Wlad would struggle to punch down at the crouching Marciano, and wlads lack of grappling and uppercuts would render him pretty useless vs the Rock.

even Louis, who had a great jab, was forced to crouch lower to jab with Marciano, and in doing this lost his power from adopting a wide stance (you cant transfer weight properly). Wlad being 6 ft 6 is going to have an even more difficult. time.

wlad has no uppercut at all, I am trying to imagine what type of punches he will land on the freddie brown headmovement.

the size while on the scale looks like a lot, isn’t as much as you would think in the ring. Marciano is very compact and dense, but very lean and built like a hard bodied gladiator not a body builder. His build was from hard work, he was a man of steel. Wladmir, looks like he just lifts a lot of weights. He can only hit you if you stand still due to all that tight muscle mass he has put on.

I believe Carmine Vingo was 6 ft 4 and was nearly killed by Marciano. You give marciano a big target and that might be all he needs.

if you watch Marciano, he even wins the rounds he loses. In the sense that only one guy was actually hurt, his oponents.

On top of this, NO wlad does not have the power to stop Marciano. He’s a decent puncher, but its not gonna be enough and thats if he's even capable of landing.

marciano is so short limbed and stocky its a lot of power and strength packed into a compact package. Wlads weight is spread out, and its not all quality weight. Its gym weight. He doesn’t have a very good chin because his true build is one of a tall slim guy who bulked up.

[them_apples]

Marciano was actually slightly heavier than both Charles 1st fight ,and Moore.
Moore did not retire after the Marciano fight.Neither did Charles.
Walcott elected to stay down in the 2nd fight as you have said. Marciano was heavier than17 of his opponents and the same weight as 3 others.
Where is your source that Walcott ,Moore ,and Charles were hospitalized after their fights with Marciano?

I can dig it up, but do you really need to question the wellbeing of ezzard Charles or Walcott? Charles started losing to everyone after Rock beat him. Walcott is the only knockout I have ever seen where the camera cuts and the opponent still hasn’t woken up. If that isn’t permanent brain damage I don’t know what is. I never saw Tyson do that, Foreman or even Louis.

I think people try to compare him to someone today, thats where they fall short. People like Marciano don’t exist anymore. Just like 3 year olds cleaning chimmeys as full time employees don’t either.

as for the weight, yes some of them he was a few lbs heavier, but ALSO some of them he was lighter. So in reality there is no size difference. And if there was, 5 lbs won’t matter and clearly isn’t the reason. He gets called the smallest heavyweight on one end, but then too big for the guys hes facing apparently. Nobody stops and realizes he just body bagged 3 ATG lhws who already proved themselves at HW.

whats to be said of Spinks beating Cooney then? Whats to be said of Moorer and Holyfield being such successful heavyweights?

I think the moral of the story is, stop focusing on weight so much - its one small factor among many and there is no evidence to suggest it to be such a prominent factor to judge by.

obviously I am a Marciano fan, but I can tell most people who comment on Marciano really havent watched him much or understand who he actually was. He fights with his tongue out like he’s focusing on fixing a pipe. He enjoys fighting in the most genuine way possible. As Ali put it “it was terrifying to see this old man so excited to get in the ring with me” - the computer fight. Marciano said early in his career he liked fighting so much he woulda done it for free. He fought sick, with injuries (would pace around and warm up hours before to quell injuries or soreness from training so much).

theres a story where he fell 20-25 ft from a tree, and got up and shook it off. He did have pain for the rest of his life though from it.

[Bundana]

Marciano would murder Wladmir. Because being big doesn�t make you good. The only reason people pick Wlad is because he�s big. There is hardly any evidence that this should carry the day, yet people continue to to spout this idea.

Marciano is incredibly strong and conditioned, his style is very very difficult to deal with (the crouch). Every round is maximal effort, a pace hardly anyone could sustain, even smaller men could not. The beating a stationary Wlad would sustain from the Rock would be immense.

while everyone tries to visualize Wlads reach somehow keeping the Rock at bay, the opposite would be true. Wlad would struggle to punch down at the crouching Marciano, and wlads lack of grappling and uppercuts would render him pretty useless vs the Rock.

even Louis, who had a great jab, was forced to crouch lower to jab with Marciano, and in doing this lost his power from adopting a wide stance (you cant transfer weight properly). Wlad being 6 ft 6 is going to have an even more difficult. time.

wlad has no uppercut at all, I am trying to imagine what type of punches he will land on the freddie brown headmovement.

the size while on the scale looks like a lot, isn�t as much as you would think in the ring. Marciano is very compact and dense, but very lean and built like a hard bodied gladiator not a body builder. His build was from hard work, he was a man of steel. Wladmir, looks like he just lifts a lot of weights. He can only hit you if you stand still due to all that tight muscle mass he has put on.

I believe Carmine Vingo was 6 ft 4 and was nearly killed by Marciano. You give marciano a big target and that might be all he needs.

if you watch Marciano, he even wins the rounds he loses. In the sense that only one guy was actually hurt, his oponents.

On top of this, NO wlad does not have the power to stop Marciano. He�s a decent puncher, but its not gonna be enough and thats if he's even capable of landing.

marciano is so short limbed and stocky its a lot of power and strength packed into a compact package. Wlads weight is spread out, and its not all quality weight. Its gym weight. He doesn�t have a very good chin because his true build is one of a tall slim guy who bulked up.

Nice to see a factual, unbiased post from you!

Ok, kidding aside... this is delusional fanboyism at its finest! It seems that everything was wrong with Wlad: Too tall, too heavy, arms too long, chin too weak, didn't punch hard enough to hurt Rocky, no actual physical strengt as his muscles were gym muscles, and therefore don't really count. I think you only forgot to mention, that as a modern boxer Wlad of course had a thin scull, which Marciano's mighty punches would surely crack open!

Yeah, against this modern weakling, Rocky would likely have a field day. I mean, what chance does anybody have against an unhurtable man of steel, who could fall down from great heights, and just get up and go on, as if nothing had happened? Also keep in mind, he nearly killed the giant Carmine Vingo - all 189 lbs of him!

Will the ridiculousness never end?

[them_apples]

Nice to see a factual, unbiased post from you!

A golden retriever weighs 4x as much as a french bulldog but they have comparable strength. Due to the build and structure of the dogs. How the weight is distributed.

Emmanuel stewart said the best you can do when matching a tall out boxer with a short stocky pressure fighter is to not match them. Ali was overall a greater fighter than Joe, but the styles made it incredibly hard for Ali.

What Foreman did to Frazier sort of put shade on shorter pressure fighters (short heavies are rare, not many men when fit are over 200 lbs but under 5’11 out side of fat guys) meaning they have comparable head sizes and fist sizes as heavyweights but are short. Foreman was able to do this to Frazier by pushing him off balance. Foreman was very strong limbed - he wasn’t just “bigger” on the scale, he was built like a brick **** house. Wladmir is not. We have 2 eras of George fighting and in both eras nobody came close to matching his strength - so lets not just use the scale to determine strength.

in the computer fight everything that came out of Alis mouth was he caught a beating. In the book “ghost in the machine” about the computer fight, they chalked the beating Marciano put on Ali as Ali not training, and Marciano training very hard secretly. This is probably true, but the true outcome we won’t know. Who knows the motive behind the computers results - (it was probably rigged and based off of observation) but Alis style struggled huge with this style. This is why Foreman smashed Frazier but Ali smashed Foreman. Styles

[Ivich]

A golden retriever weighs 4x as much as a french bulldog but they have comparable strength. Due to the build and structure of the dogs. How the weight is distributed.

Emmanuel stewart said the best you can do when matching a tall out boxer with a short stocky pressure fighter is to not match them. Ali was overall a greater fighter than Joe, but the styles made it incredibly hard for Ali.

What Foreman did to Frazier sort of put shade on shorter pressure fighters (short heavies are rare, not many men when fit are over 200 lbs but under 5�11 out side of fat guys) meaning they have comparable head sizes and fist sizes as heavyweights but are short. Foreman was able to do this to Frazier by pushing him off balance. Foreman was very strong limbed - he wasn�t just �bigger� on the scale, he was built like a brick **** house. Wladmir is not. We have 2 eras of George fighting and in both eras nobody came close to matching his strength - so lets not just use the scale to determine strength.

in the computer fight everything that came out of Alis mouth was he caught a beating. In the book �ghost in the machine� about the computer fight, they chalked the beating Marciano put on Ali as Ali not training, and Marciano training very hard secretly. This is probably true, but the true outcome we won�t know. Who knows the motive behind the computers results - (it was probably rigged and based off of observation) but Alis style struggled huge with this style. This is why Foreman smashed Frazier but Ali smashed Foreman. Styles

Marciano uninentionally landed a couple of heavy body shots on the unprepared , soft in the gut Ali, no beating was laid on him.Let's not big up this myth any further.

[Ivich]

A golden retriever weighs 4x as much as a french bulldog but they have comparable strength. Due to the build and structure of the dogs. How the weight is distributed.

Emmanuel stewart said the best you can do when matching a tall out boxer with a short stocky pressure fighter is to not match them. Ali was overall a greater fighter than Joe, but the styles made it incredibly hard for Ali.

What Foreman did to Frazier sort of put shade on shorter pressure fighters (short heavies are rare, not many men when fit are over 200 lbs but under 5�11 out side of fat guys) meaning they have comparable head sizes and fist sizes as heavyweights but are short. Foreman was able to do this to Frazier by pushing him off balance. Foreman was very strong limbed - he wasn�t just �bigger� on the scale, he was built like a brick **** house. Wladmir is not. We have 2 eras of George fighting and in both eras nobody came close to matching his strength - so lets not just use the scale to determine strength.

in the computer fight everything that came out of Alis mouth was he caught a beating. In the book �ghost in the machine� about the computer fight, they chalked the beating Marciano put on Ali as Ali not training, and Marciano training very hard secretly. This is probably true, but the true outcome we won�t know. Who knows the motive behind the computers results - (it was probably rigged and based off of observation) but Alis style struggled huge with this style. This is why Foreman smashed Frazier but Ali smashed Foreman. Styles

Emanuel Steward also said Marciano was slow ,had poor balance and would not beat modern sized heavyweights. Vingo was a string bean novice,and he wasn 't 6' 4"
Marciano never fought a quality modern sized heavyweight,nor did he fight a man who could hit like Wlad.I think Wlad destroys him at range and leans all over him in close.

[them_apples]

Marciano uninentionally landed a couple of heavy body shots on the unprepared , soft in the gut Ali, no beating was laid on him.Let's not big up this myth any further.

This isn’t a myth, there is an entire book written on it. If anything, most people don’t know.

Ali eventually responded and threw a hard right cross as Marcianos chin saying something like “if you want to play like that, expect to hit back”. It stiffened the rock up, but instantly he started puffing fire and pressing Ali as hard as he could. Continuously getting him on the ropes (the ring was small in all fairness) the pace actually got to Ali, he could no longer lift his arms, and at one point got clipped high on the head and lost his equilibrium. Eventually they stepped in and said slow down. By the days end Ali claimed he had welts all over his body (not a few like you said).

then in Alis own words:

”he’s better than Joe Frazier”
”he hit me so hard”
”he had his own style”
”I don’t know if my style would beat his style”
”who would be your toughest fight?” “That would be the hardest man to knockout, Marciano. “I don’t know if I would have beaten him”.

now lets be clear its just words, Foreman said stuff like this too - but for Muhammad Ali to say something like that is a bit off, but he said it all not long after the computer fight.

the one fact does remain, he had to nurse his body, head and arms after sparring Marciano.

it really comes down to this though: when an out boxer faces a short strong pressure fighter he fights at a disadvantage because he can’t hold him off.

boxing promoters have long known this, and stylistic matchmaking is a common denominator and it actually can look like an unfair sport since grabbing or wrestling is not allowed. This is the only reason Frazier was able to beat Ali.

This is another reason why Sam Langford at 160 lbs beat damn near everybody. Sam mckvey, a physical monster of a man said “I couldn’t understand how strong langford was, my punches did nothing to him”. Thats because Langford while only 160 lbs, is squat and compact.

we can’t look at modern boxing anymore and make comparisons because every fighter in every weight class is a level below past fighters. Its just comedic entertainment at this point. That last heavyweight undercard was a complete joke. If you think these parkers and Wilders could hang with any half decent heavyweight from a bygone era I presume you are lost.

[them_apples]

Emanuel Steward also said Marciano was slow ,had poor balance and would not beat modern sized heavyweights. Vingo was a string bean novice,and he wasn 't 6' 4"
Marciano never fought a quality modern sized heavyweight,nor did he fight a man who could hit like Wlad.I think Wlad destroys him at range and leans all over him in close.

I dont know when or why stewart would say that. But just about any good trainer that ever knew about Marciano knows whats up. Just watch an interview with walcott, Louis and moore in the same room and wait till the bring the name Marciano up. Everyone starts stuttering and looking around

[Willie Pep 229]

I dont know when or why stewart would say that. But just about any good trainer that ever knew about Marciano knows whats up. Just watch an interview with walcott, Louis and moore in the same room and wait till the bring the name Marciano up. Everyone starts stuttering and looking around

Because if Stewart doesn't say it he becomes less important. No contemporary trainer, promoter, fighter, or manager is a good historical source regarding the thing they think themselves an expert at.

The past must be less than them or they diminish their own worth.

While it's true the old love to live in the past, the young always foolishly think themselves modern, i.e. more advanced than those that came before them.

Everybody is ***** for their own epoch and can't see the other clearly.