Rocky Marciano VS Wladimir Klitschko.

[Ivich]

This isn�t a myth, there is an entire book written on it. If anything, most people don�t know.

Ali eventually responded and threw a hard right cross as Marcianos chin saying something like �if you want to play like that, expect to hit back�. It stiffened the rock up, but instantly he started puffing fire and pressing Ali as hard as he could. Continuously getting him on the ropes (the ring was small in all fairness) the pace actually got to Ali, he could no longer lift his arms, and at one point got clipped high on the head and lost his equilibrium. Eventually they stepped in and said slow down. By the days end Ali claimed he had welts all over his body (not a few like you said).

then in Alis own words:

�he�s better than Joe Frazier�
�he hit me so hard�
�he had his own style�
�I don�t know if my style would beat his style�
�who would be your toughest fight?� �That would be the hardest man to knockout, Marciano. �I don�t know if I would have beaten him�.

now lets be clear its just words, Foreman said stuff like this too - but for Muhammad Ali to say something like that is a bit off, but he said it all not long after the computer fight.

the one fact does remain, he had to nurse his body, head and arms after sparring Marciano.

it really comes down to this though: when an out boxer faces a short strong pressure fighter he fights at a disadvantage because he can�t hold him off.

boxing promoters have long known this, and stylistic matchmaking is a common denominator and it actually can look like an unfair sport since grabbing or wrestling is not allowed. This is the only reason Frazier was able to beat Ali.

This is another reason why Sam Langford at 160 lbs beat damn near everybody. Sam mckvey, a physical monster of a man said �I couldn�t understand how strong langford was, my punches did nothing to him�. Thats because Langford while only 160 lbs, is squat and compact.

we can�t look at modern boxing anymore and make comparisons because every fighter in every weight class is a level below past fighters. Its just comedic entertainment at this point. That last heavyweight undercard was a complete joke. If you think these parkers and Wilders could hang with any half decent heavyweight from a bygone era I presume you are lost.

Langford wasn't 160lbs when he fought McVey.
Ali took Foreman's full blooded punches for 8 rounds . I've read lots of boxing books that are full of crap,but you believe what you want to.

[Bundana]

we can�t look at modern boxing anymore and make comparisons because every fighter in every weight class is a level below past fighters. Its just comedic entertainment at this point. That last heavyweight undercard was a complete joke. If you think these parkers and Wilders could hang with any half decent heavyweight from a bygone era I presume you are lost.

LOL... the jokes never stop coming!

So every modern fighter, in every weight class, is so bad, that none of them can even be compared to the old-timers? Mayweather, Pac, Loma, Rigo, GGG, RJJ, Usyk, etc... they would all be hopelessly outclassed by the true greats of yesteryear? You can't honestly believe this... so why do you keep posting these absurds opinions?

[Slugfester]

They say Vlad can punch hard. He sure punches the canvas hard.

[N/A]

If the rules of boxing were properly applied when it comes to clinching, Wlad would have been close to an average boxer. So in that sense and considering his glass chin - I can see Marciano beating the *hit out of him. But there is no point in arguing over the impossible especially when so many upsets have happened.

[kara]

If the rules of boxing were properly applied when it comes to clinching, Wlad would have been close to an average boxer. So in that sense and considering his glass chin - I can see Marciano beating the *hit out of him. But there is no point in arguing over the impossible especially when so many upsets have happened.

Parker showed the way on a smaller scale last Saturday

[Ivich]

I can dig it up, but do you really need to question the wellbeing of ezzard Charles or Walcott? Charles started losing to everyone after Rock beat him. Walcott is the only knockout I have ever seen where the camera cuts and the opponent still hasn�t woken up. If that isn�t permanent brain damage I don�t know what is. I never saw Tyson do that, Foreman or even Louis.

I think people try to compare him to someone today, thats where they fall short. People like Marciano don�t exist anymore. Just like 3 year olds cleaning chimmeys as full time employees don�t either.

as for the weight, yes some of them he was a few lbs heavier, but ALSO some of them he was lighter. So in reality there is no size difference. And if there was, 5 lbs won�t matter and clearly isn�t the reason. He gets called the smallest heavyweight on one end, but then too big for the guys hes facing apparently. Nobody stops and realizes he just body bagged 3 ATG lhws who already proved themselves at HW.

whats to be said of Spinks beating Cooney then? Whats to be said of Moorer and Holyfield being such successful heavyweights?

I think the moral of the story is, stop focusing on weight so much - its one small factor among many and there is no evidence to suggest it to be such a prominent factor to judge by.

obviously I am a Marciano fan, but I can tell most people who comment on Marciano really havent watched him much or understand who he actually was. He fights with his tongue out like he�s focusing on fixing a pipe. He enjoys fighting in the most genuine way possible. As Ali put it �it was terrifying to see this old man so excited to get in the ring with me� - the computer fight. Marciano said early in his career he liked fighting so much he woulda done it for free. He fought sick, with injuries (would pace around and warm up hours before to quell injuries or soreness from training so much).

theres a story where he fell 20-25 ft from a tree, and got up and shook it off. He did have pain for the rest of his life though from it.

You said Charles retired after the Marciano fight,he didn't.

I'm not arguing those fights finished him,they did imo,but he had nearly100 fights on his clock before he faced Rocky and was a bit past his prime.
Walcott was 38 years old,that's not young now, and in the 50's it was considered ancient.
Moore, according to his Mother was 41 years old.

Because he was an relentless attrition puncher Rocky ruined several guys,Lastarza ,****ell,Layne,Charles.

If you think weight is a small factor why does every,light heavy/cruiser put it on to compete against the heavies?

Why did Spinks Holyfield Usyk,Breidis,Haye, and Moorer add weight to compete against the bigger men?

For the most part they did not need to back in the 30's, 40's, and 50's because the heavies they were meeting were 185-195lbs and the weight disparity was a matter of10/20lbs.That's an entirely different kettle of fish to conceding 50/60lbs,6 /7 inches in height, and giving away up to a foot in reach!
Permanent brain damage? When he retired Walcott opened a restaurant and did quite well.He appeared in the TV series How It Was, with Joe Louis commenting on their 2 fights,no signs of brain damage there.
I started watching Marciano's fights in the mid 60's when I began buying Super 8mm fights from Classic Fights and Black Hawk,
I believe I have seen every one of his bouts that is in the public domain ,and not once but several times.
Marciano was a great fighter and a fine man,who was imo, rather fortunate to come along in the era that he did,I don't believe he would fare well in his old division today.

[them_apples]

You said Charles retired after the Marciano fight,he didn't.

I'm not arguing those fights finished him,they did imo,but he had nearly100 fights on his clock before he faced Rocky and was a bit past his prime.
Walcott was 38 years old,that's not young now, and in the 50's it was considered ancient.
Moore, according to his Mother was 41 years old.

Because he was an relentless attrition puncher Rocky ruined several guys,Lastarza ,****ell,Layne,Charles.

If you think weight is a small factor why does every,light heavy/cruiser put it on to compete against the heavies?

Why did Spinks Holyfield Usyk,Breidis,Haye, and Moorer add weight to compete against the bigger men?

For the most part they did not need to back in the 30's, 40's, and 50's because the heavies they were meeting were 185-195lbs and the weight disparity was a matter of10/20lbs.That's an entirely different kettle of fish to conceding 50/60lbs,6 /7 inches in height, and giving away up to a foot in reach!
Permanent brain damage? When he retired Walcott opened a restaurant and did quite well.He appeared in the TV series How It Was, with Joe Louis commenting on their 2 fights,no signs of brain damage there.
I started watching Marciano's fights in the mid 60's when I began buying Super 8mm fights from Classic Fights and Black Hawk,
I believe I have seen every one of his bouts that is in the public domain ,and not once but several times.
Marciano was a great fighter and a fine man,who was imo, rather fortunate to come along in the era that he did,I don't believe he would fare well in his old division today.

Walcott retired and came back a better fighter, taking it more serious than he ever had. He himself would tell you his prime came later in his career.

Charles was finished. He was losing constantly after the Rock, and retired in a wheelchair.

they didnâ€à¢Ã‚„¢t all put on tons of weight. They just stopped cutting. Usyk and Holyfield â€Åà ‚Â“bulked upâ€Â  with drugs. It doesnâ€Ã� �¢Ã‚„¢t help, its just a myth - there is no evidence it helped them.

Spinks beats Holmes barely weighing 200 lbs. Thats what a lhw weighs when he eats as much as he wants. They donâ€ÃÂ� �„¢t go from 175 to 225 naturally. And that mass isnâ€ÃÂ� �„¢t helping them, its taking away their beat assets, speed and stamina.

spinks dominated Holmes in fight 1, he didnâ€à¢Ã‚„¢t just beat him. If you think otherwise WATCH IT AGAIN. Fight 2 was closer.

spinks crushed Cooney. Who is 6 ft 6. The size gap is massive.

the rhetoric you are spitting about the rock is just the age old misinformation. Thats what tells me you havent actually observed it all yourself. Because I have heard it all before.

Marciano beat guys that were stylistically nightmares for him and gets no credit. You guys act like light heavies havent washed heavies before. They were some of Ali and Louis’ toughest bouts, they were some of the best champs of the 90s. And if you say “they bulked up” sure they did, but the weight gap was still the same. Foreman was 250+ lbs, Bowe is 235+ Holyfield only weighed 210 in his prime.

if only they gave Marciano big punching bags for him to demolish, all the boxing fans that fixate on size would be shut up instantly. Marcianos hardest work was just getting them to sit still not for his lack of strength and power.

furthermore, its actually extremely rare where a heavyweight wins because he was “too big”. Its not that common. Ability shines above all else. We have boatloads of evidence for this. Even the best big guys lost to small guys. Foreman and young??? Lewis and mcall/rahman?? Brewster??? Didn’t cunningham almost spark a prime Fury??

I find it absurd that you find it absurd that I don’t see why size matters so much at heavyweight when we have MULTIPLE ERAS of evidence that proves my point, and you have 0 to prove yours.

yes weight classes matter when human beings are scaling proportionately. By the time we get to heavyweight, many men are only there because of height or just being fat. The builds vary drastically. Some have peanut heads and skinny arms with big bellies.

[them_apples]

LOL... the jokes never stop coming!

So every modern fighter, in every weight class, is so bad, that none of them can even be compared to the old-timers? Mayweather, Pac, Loma, Rigo, GGG, RJJ, Usyk, etc... they would all be hopelessly outclassed by the true greats of yesteryear? You can't honestly believe this... so why do you keep posting these absurds opinions?

For their respective level YES.

meaning, the best guys of past eras are better than the best guys now. Every single one.

is Pacquiao great at 126? Yes he is! Does he beat Arguello and Sanchez? NO! Does mayweather beat Armstrong? Hell NO!

Miguel Cotto is a high level welter of the 00s. He fought all the top welters and gave them hell.

he gets killed by Palomino or Cuevas though, no question. Those punches he throws won’t be enough and his gas tank isn’t gonna survive.

[Slugfester]

For their respective level YES.

meaning, the best guys of past eras are better than the best guys now. Every single one.

is Pacquiao great at 126? Yes he is! Does he beat Arguello and Sanchez? NO! Does mayweather beat Armstrong? Hell NO!

Miguel Cotto is a high level welter of the 00s. He fought all the top welters and gave them hell.

he gets killed by Palomino or Cuevas though, no question. Those punches he throws won�t be enough and his gas tank isn�t gonna survive.

First of all, Mayweather (as much as I hate to admit it) probably beats slow, stiff Arguello fairly easily in my view. I think Alexis is no better than even against Pacquiao, who is so much faster. Sanchez might be a different story. He just might beat anyone his weight. I give him a good chance even against Pep.

Excuse me, but did Sanchez fight anyone close to as good as the guys you say he would walk over? I don't find them on his record. Gomez was a midget. I suppose you think Pacquiao could not beat Danny Red Lopez either, even the version Sanchez beat. The professor was the best natural featherweight he fought. Only about 14 fights into his career he gave Sanchez all he wanted to handle. Azumah might actually have a decent chance against Pac.

I love the old fighters too, but you have now placed yourself in an untenable position with such statements as ALL the old fighters were better than the current ones. If you want to think the old fighters were generally better schooled, no problem. But let's not get absurd with it. Such statements make anyone sound churlish.

Your bias is pretty extreme. I have a question. Would fighters of the 30's do the same thing to fighters from the 50's and 60's as the 50's and 60's would do to current fighters? They are older after all. What is your historical cutoff for this assumed superiority?

[Ivich]

Walcott retired and came back a better fighter, taking it more serious than he ever had. He himself would tell you his prime came later in his career.

Charles was finished. He was losing constantly after the Rock, and retired in a wheelchair.

they didn�������¢���¢�������¬���¢�������¢t all put on tons of weight. They just stopped cutting. Usyk and Holyfield �������¢���¢�������¬��������bulked up�������¢���¢�������¬�������� with drugs. It doesn�������¢���¢�������¬���¢�������¢t help, its just a myth - there is no evidence it helped them.

Spinks beats Holmes barely weighing 200 lbs. Thats what a lhw weighs when he eats as much as he wants. They don�������¢���¢�������¬���¢�������¢t go from 175 to 225 naturally. And that mass isn�������¢���¢�������¬���¢�������¢t helping them, its taking away their beat assets, speed and stamina.

spinks dominated Holmes in fight 1, he didn�������¢���¢�������¬���¢�������¢t just beat him. If you think otherwise WATCH IT AGAIN. Fight 2 was closer.

spinks crushed Cooney. Who is 6 ft 6. The size gap is massive.

the rhetoric you are spitting about the rock is just the age old misinformation. Thats what tells me you havent actually observed it all yourself. Because I have heard it all before.

Marciano beat guys that were stylistically nightmares for him and gets no credit. You guys act like light heavies havent washed heavies before. They were some of Ali and Louis�¢���� toughest bouts, they were some of the best champs of the 90s. And if you say â��they bulked upâ�� sure they did, but the weight gap was still the same. Foreman was 250+ lbs, Bowe is 235+ Holyfield only weighed 210 in his prime.

if only they gave Marciano big punching bags for him to demolish, all the boxing fans that fixate on size would be shut up instantly. Marcianos hardest work was just getting them to sit still not for his lack of strength and power.

furthermore, its actually extremely rare where a heavyweight wins because he was �¢����too big�¢����. Its not that common. Ability shines above all else. We have boatloads of evidence for this. Even the best big guys lost to small guys. Foreman and young??? Lewis and mcall/rahman?? Brewster??? Didn�¢����t cunningham almost spark a prime Fury??

I find it absurd that you find it absurd that I don�¢����t see why size matters so much at heavyweight when we have MULTIPLE ERAS of evidence that proves my point, and you have 0 to prove yours.

yes weight classes matter when human beings are scaling proportionately. By the time we get to heavyweight, many men are only there because of height or just being fat. The builds vary drastically. Some have peanut heads and skinny arms with big bellies.

No they didnt ,"stop cutting" Spinks gained 30lbs under nutritionist Mackie Shilstone.

Holyfield worked like a dog on a Nautilus machine he gained22lbs.

Moorer gained 25lbs

Haye gained 18lbs

Usyk gained 21lbs .

And in each case this is muscle we are talking about.

If the extra muscle didnt help them?
Why did they add it?
Why were they successful carrying it?

Holyfield is 6 '2 1/2" 78" reach

Usyk is 6'3" 78" reach

Moorer 6'2" 78"reach

Spinks 6'2 1/2 76" "reach

Haye 6'3" 78" reach

Spinks beat Holmes because Holmes was at the end of the trail and he barely managed it.Prime Holmes beats him up.
Spinks took on the washed up Cooney ,because he had ducked and avoided his no1 Tony Tucker ,who may well have beaten him.

All these men deliberately added muscle to their frames to take on the big guys.
Charles had M S, Marciano didn't put him in a wheelchair which is what you are implying ,and he was retired for some years before his mobility left him.
Charles who was at his best at LHVY gave Marciano a hell of a fight.

Walcott who was 38 years old gave Marciano life and death,flooring him.

Forty One years old Moore188lbs dropped Marciano and stunned him, Rocky said he blacked out for a few seconds,when he got up he was disorientated enough to start for the ropes,believing he was entitled to a standing count,which was waived for title fights.

All these men I have named are between 4 and 5 inches taller than Marciano.
All these men have between 8 to ten inches of reach on him.

Marciano never proved himself against ; A modern sized heavyweight of class and power ,his best wins are over aging men who were past prime .

Marciano faced very, very few top level heavyweight punchers and no ATG ones.

Marciano was cut in all his major fights.

"the rhetoric you are spitting about the rock is just the age old misinformation. Thats what tells me you havent actually observed it all yourself. Because I have heard it all before."

I'm willing to bet I've seen more footage of your hero than you have.

Now point out any,"misinformation" in my post,show us where I am not presenting facts?
You are in denial.and now getting annoyed because I disagree with you, and you have no answer,and no rebuttal to my facts.