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Originally posted by IronDanHamza
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I think so.
Did James Toney ever have an impressive dominant performance over a top opponent in his career? The only two I think that could arguably qualify are Iran Barkley and Vassily Jirov. But on the flipside Barkley is a decent opponent at best and although Toney beat Jirov clearly it was hardly a dominant performance.
A quick look into James Toney's career (not just the 90's)
Turned Pro in 1988, had a string of easy building fights as most pro's do until he fought cagey veteran Sanderline Williams in 1990.
This was a decent step up at the time, the fight was scored a draw. I scored the fight for Toney but it was reasonably close. You could see the difference in experience and despite the unlucky draw it was a good learning fight for Toney and a fight he avenged 3 months later in dominant fashion.
In 1991 he fought Merqui Sosa, undefeated prospect but expected to be an easy fight for the rising potential star Toney. Toney won by split decision, showing signs of struggle against what was supposed to be an easy opponent. I scored the fight for Toney after winning the first half of the fight plus a knockdown. He seemed to fade late and let Sosa back into the fight but the right man won IMO. Still, by no means dominant.
Later that year he fought his best opponent to date and possibly the best win of his career, Micheal Nunn. Nunn exposing many flaws In Toney's game was well ahead in the fight until Toney pulled it out the bag and got a late KO. A great win for Toney but far far from dominant.
His next fight after that he fought Reggie Johnson, IMO a very underrated fighter and very skilled fighter. Toney expected to win but yet again struggling badly, getting dropped and hurt in the second round and IMO losing the fight. Toney was awarded an SD in what was a close fight that could have gone either way, but for my money Johnson did enough to edge it.
Later that year Toney matched up with a great fighter and IMO the greatest Jr MW of all time in Mike McCallum in one of my favourite ever fights. Great back and forth and skills for both men. Very close fight that ended up a draw which IMO could not be fairer as I scored it a draw myself. More people seemed to think Toney edged it but many also felt Mcallum did. Can't argue with the result.
After one of the best fights I've ever seen, Toney's next fight possibly being his worst ever performance against Dave Tiberi, another expectation of an easy fight an alleged "drained" and "out of shape" Toney got gifted a split decision over Tiberi in one of the worst robberies I've personally ever seen. A clear cut win for Tiberi IMO.
Later that same year of 1992 Toney rematched Mike McCallum, the rematch not living up to the first encounter but still a good fight none the less. Much like many Toney fights Toney landing the cleaner flashier work but finding himself getting out worked consistently. The fight was scored for Toney by Majority decision. Once again a very close fight despite the ridiculous wide scorecards. I scored the fight for McCallum but can't argue with the decision.
After the McCallum rematch he fought two solid opponents in Doug DeWitt and Iran Barkley, beating both easily. As we entered 1993 and up until 1994 Toney fought mostly weak opposition outside of Tim Littles and Tony Thornton who were decent/solid wins.
His next fight was Prince Charles Williams who was considered to be a decent test. Despite struggling to dominate the fight he did pull out a KO in the final round.
His next fight against Roy Jones Jr. No need to talk about this fight everyone knows how it went. Toney was dominated every second of every round despite being the betting favourite.
His next fight was with a 14-0 relatively unknown Montel Griffin. Once again Toney falling short in a fight he was expected to win losing an MD. Very close fight that could have gone either way, I had Griffin just edging it.
After back to back loses, Toney fought weak opposition for the remainder of 1995 and 1996, until the rematch with Montel Griffin in 1997.
Griffin won the rematch by UD, however IMO Toney edged it.
Despite arguments for both sides IMO both of these fights were clearly very close and certainly not robberies. Toney once again finding a way to make a fight close and struggling to put on a dominant performance.
His next fight after that was a third fight with McCallum. This time Toney getting a clear decision over the ageing great.
With the momentum from the McCallum win Toney fought Drake Thadzi, once again expecting to be an easy fight against a sub-par opponent but at this point you'd be naive to think any fight is easy for Toney. He went on to lose to Thadzi by MD. A close-ish fight but a fight that Toney certainly lost. Toney had the "out of shape" excuse ready as per usual.
After an extremely disappointing loss to Thadzi, Toney didn't do much from 1997-2003 in which he fought mostly poor opposition until he got his shot at Crusierweight Champ Vassily Jirov.
Toney the betting underdog pulled out what is arguably the best win of his career beating Jirov by UD in a back and forth war. Rivalling McCallum 1 in one of the best fights of his career and certainly one of his best wins. However despite the goodwin it was still far from dominant despite clearly being ahead on the cards.
His next fight he moved up to Heavyweight to beat the shell Evander Holyfield in a fight that IMO should never have happened.
After this there's not much of note to talk about with Toney other than a failed drug test vs John Ruiz aswell as two valiant efforts vs Sam Peter.
As you can see running themes in James Toney's career are struggling with sub-par opposition and being incapable of putting on a dominant performance.
Can you name a single dominant and impressive win over a top level opponent? I honestly can't.
He failed to dominate or clearly beat Tiberi, McCallum (first 2), Johnson, Griffin, Thadzi and struggled with S.Williams and Sosa.
Touching again on his best wins, Nunn and Jirov. He didn't like dominant in either fight, especially Nunn.
People say Roy Jones fought weak opponents yet Jones blasted out Sosa in 2 rounds, Griffin in one round, dominated and shut out Reggie Johnson. These are "weak opponents" Toney struggled with and arguably lost to.
IMO Toney in the 90's went 0-1 with Reggie Johnson, 0-1 with Dave Tiberi, went 1-1 with Montel Griffin, 0-1-1 with McCallum, 0-1 with Roy Jones and 0-1 with Drake Thazdi.
Best wins being Nunn, Grffin 2 and Barkley.
If we look at his resume for the 90's specifically is it impressive? It's littered with poor performances against sub par opponents and he struggled or lost against every good fighter he faced.
What's your view? Is Toney overrated? If he's considered an ATG then certainly, IMO.
Did James Toney ever have an impressive dominant performance over a top opponent in his career? The only two I think that could arguably qualify are Iran Barkley and Vassily Jirov. But on the flipside Barkley is a decent opponent at best and although Toney beat Jirov clearly it was hardly a dominant performance.
A quick look into James Toney's career (not just the 90's)
Turned Pro in 1988, had a string of easy building fights as most pro's do until he fought cagey veteran Sanderline Williams in 1990.
This was a decent step up at the time, the fight was scored a draw. I scored the fight for Toney but it was reasonably close. You could see the difference in experience and despite the unlucky draw it was a good learning fight for Toney and a fight he avenged 3 months later in dominant fashion.
In 1991 he fought Merqui Sosa, undefeated prospect but expected to be an easy fight for the rising potential star Toney. Toney won by split decision, showing signs of struggle against what was supposed to be an easy opponent. I scored the fight for Toney after winning the first half of the fight plus a knockdown. He seemed to fade late and let Sosa back into the fight but the right man won IMO. Still, by no means dominant.
Later that year he fought his best opponent to date and possibly the best win of his career, Micheal Nunn. Nunn exposing many flaws In Toney's game was well ahead in the fight until Toney pulled it out the bag and got a late KO. A great win for Toney but far far from dominant.
His next fight after that he fought Reggie Johnson, IMO a very underrated fighter and very skilled fighter. Toney expected to win but yet again struggling badly, getting dropped and hurt in the second round and IMO losing the fight. Toney was awarded an SD in what was a close fight that could have gone either way, but for my money Johnson did enough to edge it.
Later that year Toney matched up with a great fighter and IMO the greatest Jr MW of all time in Mike McCallum in one of my favourite ever fights. Great back and forth and skills for both men. Very close fight that ended up a draw which IMO could not be fairer as I scored it a draw myself. More people seemed to think Toney edged it but many also felt Mcallum did. Can't argue with the result.
After one of the best fights I've ever seen, Toney's next fight possibly being his worst ever performance against Dave Tiberi, another expectation of an easy fight an alleged "drained" and "out of shape" Toney got gifted a split decision over Tiberi in one of the worst robberies I've personally ever seen. A clear cut win for Tiberi IMO.
Later that same year of 1992 Toney rematched Mike McCallum, the rematch not living up to the first encounter but still a good fight none the less. Much like many Toney fights Toney landing the cleaner flashier work but finding himself getting out worked consistently. The fight was scored for Toney by Majority decision. Once again a very close fight despite the ridiculous wide scorecards. I scored the fight for McCallum but can't argue with the decision.
After the McCallum rematch he fought two solid opponents in Doug DeWitt and Iran Barkley, beating both easily. As we entered 1993 and up until 1994 Toney fought mostly weak opposition outside of Tim Littles and Tony Thornton who were decent/solid wins.
His next fight was Prince Charles Williams who was considered to be a decent test. Despite struggling to dominate the fight he did pull out a KO in the final round.
His next fight against Roy Jones Jr. No need to talk about this fight everyone knows how it went. Toney was dominated every second of every round despite being the betting favourite.
His next fight was with a 14-0 relatively unknown Montel Griffin. Once again Toney falling short in a fight he was expected to win losing an MD. Very close fight that could have gone either way, I had Griffin just edging it.
After back to back loses, Toney fought weak opposition for the remainder of 1995 and 1996, until the rematch with Montel Griffin in 1997.
Griffin won the rematch by UD, however IMO Toney edged it.
Despite arguments for both sides IMO both of these fights were clearly very close and certainly not robberies. Toney once again finding a way to make a fight close and struggling to put on a dominant performance.
His next fight after that was a third fight with McCallum. This time Toney getting a clear decision over the ageing great.
With the momentum from the McCallum win Toney fought Drake Thadzi, once again expecting to be an easy fight against a sub-par opponent but at this point you'd be naive to think any fight is easy for Toney. He went on to lose to Thadzi by MD. A close-ish fight but a fight that Toney certainly lost. Toney had the "out of shape" excuse ready as per usual.
After an extremely disappointing loss to Thadzi, Toney didn't do much from 1997-2003 in which he fought mostly poor opposition until he got his shot at Crusierweight Champ Vassily Jirov.
Toney the betting underdog pulled out what is arguably the best win of his career beating Jirov by UD in a back and forth war. Rivalling McCallum 1 in one of the best fights of his career and certainly one of his best wins. However despite the goodwin it was still far from dominant despite clearly being ahead on the cards.
His next fight he moved up to Heavyweight to beat the shell Evander Holyfield in a fight that IMO should never have happened.
After this there's not much of note to talk about with Toney other than a failed drug test vs John Ruiz aswell as two valiant efforts vs Sam Peter.
As you can see running themes in James Toney's career are struggling with sub-par opposition and being incapable of putting on a dominant performance.
Can you name a single dominant and impressive win over a top level opponent? I honestly can't.
He failed to dominate or clearly beat Tiberi, McCallum (first 2), Johnson, Griffin, Thadzi and struggled with S.Williams and Sosa.
Touching again on his best wins, Nunn and Jirov. He didn't like dominant in either fight, especially Nunn.
People say Roy Jones fought weak opponents yet Jones blasted out Sosa in 2 rounds, Griffin in one round, dominated and shut out Reggie Johnson. These are "weak opponents" Toney struggled with and arguably lost to.
IMO Toney in the 90's went 0-1 with Reggie Johnson, 0-1 with Dave Tiberi, went 1-1 with Montel Griffin, 0-1-1 with McCallum, 0-1 with Roy Jones and 0-1 with Drake Thazdi.
Best wins being Nunn, Grffin 2 and Barkley.
If we look at his resume for the 90's specifically is it impressive? It's littered with poor performances against sub par opponents and he struggled or lost against every good fighter he faced.
What's your view? Is Toney overrated? If he's considered an ATG then certainly, IMO.
If Toney fought as good as his foul mouth spewed, he'd be up there with the alltime ol'Timers.
He ain't, but what sayeth my ol' buddy Boozo who used to fill my inbox with vitriolic Toney missives?
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