Are all modern fighters bigger?

[juggernaut666]

these threads appear over and over again. People costantly confuse bad science and standard deviation with a trend.

Bad science makes people believe that there is some fundamental change in human physiology...bad reasoning ability makes people believe that there is a trend towards BETTER heavyweight fighters being BIGGER, when no such trend exists.

Here is a trend: In MMA up until the early ninties or so, a fighter could be a champion having mastered Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. After the advent of fighters, orginally from the Lions Den in San Jose California showed how learning fundamentals of kick boxing, Thai boxing (there is a difference), wrestling, and jiu Jitsu would allow a fighter to challenge brazilian hegemony in the sport. Shortly thereafter it became apparent that no champion calibre fighter could rely exclusively upon Jiu Jitsu in the ring. This TREND is born out by tracing the training of every champ since that seminal championship: none are purely Jiu Jitsu stylists. Also, corresponding with this development there have been fewer and fewer Jiu Jitsu specialists in the UFC.

Also, during this time, other MMA champions, such as Fedor, whom some say remains the best technical MMA fighter ever so far, trained extensively in Sambo (Russian Judo) and boxing. Also, during this time was another seminal event that occured under the radar, so to speak...when KImo using nothing but brute force and a will of iron, basically took the technically superb Helio Gracie all the way to exhaustion, in a losing effort that never the less made it apparent that there were weaknesses in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu that could be exploited by good old fashioned resolve.

Now that folks IS A TREND! You have antecedents that caused changes... you have seminal events that demonstrated possabilities that were not considered before the event...and you can now look and see that there are no MMA fighters who enter the professional ranks, as an exclusive stylist in any one martial art...most guys learn specific arts that are designed to function in the ring as maximally effective.

You simply won't find this trend in boxing. There is no shortage of smaller heavyweights that are succesful, there are champions that are bigger, or fall within the average size of a heavyweight, etc.

Fedor, whom some say remains the best technical MMA fighter ever so far, trained extensively in Sambo (Russian Judo) and boxing. Also, during this time was another seminal event that occured under the radar, so to speak...when KImo using nothing but brute force and a will of iron, basically took the technically superb Helio Gracie all the way to exhaustion, in a losing effort that never the less made it apparent that there were weaknesses in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu that could be exploited by good old fashioned resolve.



Fedor was technical against one dimensional fighters,many fighters have progressed since 2005...kimo tired Gracie out due to the heat and 80 pound weight advantage.....the rest you said was correct,as a student of shoot fighting myself said to everyone grcaie would win a rematch with shamrock and most likel;y bow out by the 7th UFC, he did sooner. As a matter of faxct im going to a friends how b/c of you and demonstrate leg locks...I hope I didn't drink to much....lol....and I don't know if this helps the post but oh well....!

[Elroy1]

You are not taken seriously. YOu have not presented any proof whatsoever, you did the equivalent of the following

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNkjDuSVXiE

This is your technique. Your amusing at best, but the adults are up now.

Nah, I think anybody who reads this couldnh't help but take it seriously...

Let me slow it down for you there buddy, you got lost...

Over any representitive sample of boxing matches, especially at HW where the differences are even more pronounced, but also at limit weights too both now (with reinflation times) and in the past (where less divisions meant more weight deviation)- the chances of the larger fighter winning are greater, and the greater the differential, the greater that chance.

And intuition aligns with numbers.. That's the entire reason for fighters complaining about weight. IT's the entire reason for weight ranges!

Further, the average weight and height of boxers has increased over time.. We can directly calculate these stats also from any representative sample from boxrec for example.

Explain to me how you can refute, or even argue with these points?

They are uncontestable, you know it,a nd everybody knows it!

You are beaten here, you simply had to argue because as we all know..

IF the nut bags finally admitted the true importance of weight in boxing matches then they would hardly anything at all to say about the chances of their old favourite ATG boxers and the entire US Nostalgia mythology would crumble.

Fact!

[Weltschmerz]

Is a 5'8'' Floyd Mayweather bigger than a 5'10'' Ray Leonard?

No, Floyd is a small man.

[billeau2]

Fedor, whom some say remains the best technical MMA fighter ever so far, trained extensively in Sambo (Russian Judo) and boxing. Also, during this time was another seminal event that occured under the radar, so to speak...when KImo using nothing but brute force and a will of iron, basically took the technically superb Helio Gracie all the way to exhaustion, in a losing effort that never the less made it apparent that there were weaknesses in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu that could be exploited by good old fashioned resolve.



Fedor was technical against one dimensional fighters,many fighters have progressed since 2005...kimo tired Gracie out due to the heat and 80 pound weight advantage.....the rest you said was correct,as a student of shoot fighting myself said to everyone grcaie would win a rematch with shamrock and most likel;y bow out by the 7th UFC, he did sooner. As a matter of faxct im going to a friends how b/c of you and demonstrate leg locks...I hope I didn't drink to much....lol....and I don't know if this helps the post but oh well....!

Leg locks...more people in MMA should train them, they are so important and a mainstay of Sambo (among other arts). Just don't drink and pop an achilles tendon! Thats a good area to be proficient in for sure. I have seen grown men cry when being ankle locked, figure foured, etc.

[billeau2]

Nah, I think anybody who reads this couldnh't help but take it seriously...

Let me slow it down for you there buddy, you got lost...

Over any representitive sample of boxing matches, especially at HW where the differences are even more pronounced, but also at limit weights too both now (with reinflation times) and in the past (where less divisions meant more weight deviation)- the chances of the larger fighter winning are greater, and the greater the differential, the greater that chance.

And intuition aligns with numbers.. That's the entire reason for fighters complaining about weight. IT's the entire reason for weight ranges!

Further, the average weight and height of boxers has increased over time.. We can directly calculate these stats also from any representative sample from boxrec for example.

Explain to me how you can refute, or even argue with these points?

They are uncontestable, you know it,a nd everybody knows it!

You are beaten here, you simply had to argue because as we all know..

IF the nut bags finally admitted the true importance of weight in boxing matches then they would hardly anything at all to say about the chances of their old favourite ATG boxers and the entire US Nostalgia mythology would crumble.

Fact!

One can look at a sample of succesful boxers. the heavyweight ranks particularly because it is an open division. One can see who has become champions, who is succesful. for one thing we would expect that during times of better strength there would be no crusiers entering the division, we would expect to see all succesful heavyweights being bigger...no such occurance of either. Your statements are simply false, thats a fact. There is no indication that more weight has produced more succesful heavyweight fighters.

You are confusing success, with averages. Sure, thousands of Gracie only sytlists could enter MMA, but the proof of success is in what fighters are succesful and succesful fighters, virtually all of them in the MMA are trained in all disciplines. You just can't admit it Elroy, thats ok... So someone who is not particularly bright see Valuev as indicative...but indicative or what? David haye and John Ruiz, both average to small heavies beat Valuev (whatever the judges said). I am talking about success, and the trend towards success and no boxing trainer is going to tell a fighter like haye for example: "you need more weight to be succesful." YOu gots to learn to think

[juggernaut666]

Leg locks...more people in MMA should train them, they are so important and a mainstay of Sambo (among other arts). Just don't drink and pop an achilles tendon! Thats a good area to be proficient in for sure. I have seen grown men cry when being ankle locked, figure foured, etc.

I won my first grappling match with a stand up heell hook ,crazy they are there all the time!


On the size thing , i think mahy big guys are a bit harder to fight than better skilled smaller ones ,is the issue here ,i had a very good technical sparring partner my size who was easy , then i had anothrr i frequently trained with who was 6'3 250 who had not so many skills but made me struggle more by far ,i think the better skilled bigger guys today over yesterdays smaller more technical ones is the debate here, i thijk all fighters were successful big and small ,but the overall concept of modern HW has shifted.

[billeau2]

I won my first grappling match with a stand up heell hook ,crazy they are there all the time!


On the size thing , i think mahy big guys are a bit harder to fight than better skilled smaller ones ,is the issue here ,i had a very good technical sparring partner my size who was easy , then i had anothrr i frequently trained with who was 6'3 250 who had not so many skills but made me struggle more by far ,i think the better skilled bigger guys today over yesterdays smaller more technical ones is the debate here, i thijk all fighters were successful big and small ,but the overall concept of modern HW has shifted.

Size is a factor, and it can be a major factor. The question is if it has become such a factor that a trend in boxing has formed where a guy, to be succesful, or a champion, has to be bigger than heavyweights before him. The simple fact is we have heavyweight fighters who are succesful of all weight ranges presently, and while guys may come in on the high side at times from 220-240 this is still a good size range for a succesful heavyweight.

Now, surely this may mean that these guys are very good...so good that they can deal with size, and speed and reach... A successful fighter like David Haye for example. Or a fighter like Tyson, Holyfield, etc. The big difference is in MMA for example, we would be hard pressed to find a guy who can overcome the advantage his opposition has in studying all arts, if this guy was...oh lets say, a Jiu Jitsu man. I doubt we could find a succesful MMA man who studies one approach and is succesful in the ring and if we did he would be an anomolie.

If Elroy were to say that size is more of an advantage than, lets say skill...well the one thing that complicates this is when fighters come in overweight, or are really underskilled. You have a good notion of guys who may not look skilled but are, guys like Razor Ruddock who we agree on. We also have guys like Aeriola who are overweight and would be fighting at an average weight down from the 240's. Thats why its tricky getting a fix on the degree that size presents as better, or worse than other advantages. also keep in mind guys like Toney, who would probably be their best fighting at around 190, as a heavyweight and are skilled enough to pick off many big guys who are not so skilled...though I don't think Toney beats Vlad, or Vitalie for that matter.

[McGoorty]

Max/Buddy Baer were known as chisled muscular giants in there day...by todays standards they both would look like they were on a toxin cleansing diet,all bone no mass. This is one example of course...even the great Louis had a great physique but lets be real he looks like a little boy in comparison to the average Hw who came after by 1970's. Even the bull Marciano is little noticeable at 185 copmpared to a Ken Norton/Lyle type fighter...both physiques became common in the 80's....to give an extent to how big guys got we had 6'3 240 Ruddock and guys like 6'5 230 tucker as the starting point of muscular giants. Of course Foreman at 6'3 220/225 was the first real one to be on the scene with modern skill for a good big Hw.


Looking at some pics even of the 200 pound Johnson who would most likely benefit more if he had been in modern age since his bmi w in conjuction with modern training would have him at about 6'4 240 pounds. However that is re creating a fighter which is not the topic.


6'2 plus ripped/ big Hw's like Jennings/ Joshua/Arias/Wilder/Haye/Povetkin/Klitchko etc are nothing special nowadays .

There were p[lenty ripped/Muscualr 90's SHW guys as well... Golota/Mercer/Morrison/Ruddock/Lewis/McCall/Rahman/Holyfield//Seldon/Thunder/Tyson/Grant/Briggs/Bruno/Foreman..etc...the era was stacked with guys who would dwarf the previuos generations.


The overall weight/height is bigger today...the average Hw is 6'3 235/ 6'4 240 somewhere in between ..MOST are not ripped as they weigh about 240 plus at times...guys like Wach at 6'8 260 or 6'0 Leapai who is just thick at about 250 like a Tua are not cut but both are about the 240/250 mark....Pulev at 6'4 250 is no cut guy either but massively thick too.


I would say the lighter weight classes its even a bigger difference now as far as size/ripped go. Take a look at SRR and RJJ's build.that is the difference as a whole.

LOL I just love it when folk get real selective, I note you didn't mention any of the incredible fit fighters and incredible ripped like Basilio and Gavilan. If these wankers of today are so "ripped" why is it that they struggle to go just a wee 12 rounds ???? I have seen countless fighters today who tire easily....... end of.

[billeau2]

LOL I just love it when folk get real selective, I note you didn't mention any of the incredible fit fighters and incredible ripped like Basilio and Gavilan. If these wankers of today are so "ripped" why is it that they struggle to go just a wee 12 rounds ???? I have seen countless fighters today who tire easily....... end of.

The argument is that bigger fighters are now more fit to go more rounds. In other words bigger men can do more than before with conditioning techniques having developed. Interesting thing is look at the shape of many MMA guys, they are indeed in very good condition. There are also many bigger heavyweights who are in shape.

My opinion is that the potential to be in excellent shape given the fitness technology is there... the old guys had good concept of core strength, and many athletes today do as well. I just am undecided on how it translates in the ring per se. I am undecided in this one as of yet... It makes more direct sense in MMA because there is no way a guy can grapple away and not be in great shape...That tells me that the conditioning is there.

I also agree with you that there are factors the old timers had which made them very well prepared to go and perform...There is an old adage that states we fight and perform based on how we train. Getting into a ring and figting is perhaps the best training for...."getting in the ring and fighting." lol.

Or as it was put to us: "He who hesitates, meditates in the horizontal position."

[juggernaut666]

Size is a factor, and it can be a major factor. The question is if it has become such a factor that a trend in boxing has formed where a guy, to be succesful, or a champion, has to be bigger than heavyweights before him. The simple fact is we have heavyweight fighters who are succesful of all weight ranges presently, and while guys may come in on the high side at times from 220-240 this is still a good size range for a succesful heavyweight.

Now, surely this may mean that these guys are very good...so good that they can deal with size, and speed and reach... A successful fighter like David Haye for example. Or a fighter like Tyson, Holyfield, etc. The big difference is in MMA for example, we would be hard pressed to find a guy who can overcome the advantage his opposition has in studying all arts, if this guy was...oh lets say, a Jiu Jitsu man. I doubt we could find a succesful MMA man who studies one approach and is succesful in the ring and if we did he would be an anomolie.

If Elroy were to say that size is more of an advantage than, lets say skill...well the one thing that complicates this is when fighters come in overweight, or are really underskilled. You have a good notion of guys who may not look skilled but are, guys like Razor Ruddock who we agree on. We also have guys like Aeriola who are overweight and would be fighting at an average weight down from the 240's. Thats why its tricky getting a fix on the degree that size presents as better, or worse than other advantages. also keep in mind guys like Toney, who would probably be their best fighting at around 190, as a heavyweight and are skilled enough to pick off many big guys who are not so skilled...though I don't think Toney beats Vlad, or Vitalie for that matter.

It comes down to fight mechanics a 240 guy will not fight like a 205 pound fighter...its not those times anymore...moreover a fighter fighter will look like a more technical fighter due to more movability and incresase and easier technical abilities being lighter.this does not mean advantage which we are discussing...a average big man will almost always be harder to defeat then a skilled smaller HW. Arreola is decent,his main strength is size for sure over skill,not an easy night for anyone who steps in with him. Then of course abnormal 240 plus klitchko /Lewis type caliber...well you are in for a long night beating those type of fighters.