Rid**** Bowe or Vitali Klitschko. Who ranks higher?

[billeau2]

Yes I can't see how anybody could defend Bowe's resume over Vitali's.

Likewise notions such as Corso's and cronies are simply handwavium.

I didn't know Briggs said that. From the looks of some of Vitali's punches when he sits down on them I could certainly swallow that. Foreman's punches seem to more screw with opponents equilibrium due to their push nature and enormous bulk behind them by comparison.

Taking a position that Golota was better than Bowe is certainly defendable.

As for the cases against Vitali's opponents, well A quick viewing of say the Kirk Johnson fight- a 260lber of rather better speed and cadence than Bowe, reveals how the baseless rubbishing of upper eschelon boxers is not only nullified, but reversed.

I noticed some mockery of my Holyfield/Adamek comparison above also. Suffice to say it's been done before- and very little concrete evidence can be supplied for a Holyfield superiority.

Of course when we remember how Holyfield represents pretty much the very best of American heavyweight boxing efforts to date- we can see a different explanation to the establishments position.

johnson's normal weight was in the 230's and he was a pillow puncher. So he was not a bigger heavyweight nor did he have anywhere the talent of Bowe.

[Elroy1]

johnson's normal weight was in the 230's and he was a pillow puncher. So he was not a bigger heavyweight nor did he have anywhere the talent of Bowe.

Yes that is a consideration. In fact we can lay it all out.

There was also a 2" height advantage to Bowe, and the weight was roughly equivalent normally with a slight advantage too Bowe (of course the normally more compact Johnson had some advantages inferred by such a state also.)

When you say he was a "pillow puncher", let's first look at the numbers for guidance.. We can see that he was not exactly a smashing machine in this department but we can also see with 27 KO's that he is neither a weak hitter either.

We must remember that Rid**** built his own resume up with notably smaller and somewhat lesser grade opposition than other champs did, therefore inflating Bowe's measure of power.

In fact for all 3 boxers, Vitali, Bowe and Johnson- there can be considerable debate as to how hard each hit. Vitali can be rated much more powerful than some suggest and Bowe much less likewise. Similar can be postulated for Johnson.

Of course, no mention was made in your text aboout Johnson's actual strong suits..

-Speed and footwork
-Counter-punching and reflexes

Even at 260lbs and chubby like against Vitali- we can see how nimble as quick and potentially dangerous an opponent this guy really was (I encourage everybody reading who hasn't so to watch the fight). Of course, whatever his usual weight was- against Vitali he DID weigh 260lbs and was hence, far larger than any Rid**** Bowe.

In prediction of your rebuttal here you will obviously reference laziness and fat weight as being detrimental and irrelevant. But I would counter almost unassailably that by observation of ACTUAL boxing results and history as well as the actual science of boxing also- that fat weight is still weight and conveys certain advantages in a boxing fight as well as significantly reduced disadvantages (i.e. in speed and stamina) than the equivalent extra weight in muscle, counter to some peoples intuition.

Fact is, is that if Rid**** Bowe has fought Kirk Johnson and WON, he would have been right up there with both Andrew Golota and Evander Holyfield as the best opponents he ever beat and you could not even make a full proof argumet that either oof these guys were better wins.

[NChristo]

Watching the Johnson fight now and his footwork is actually ****ing hideous, Vitali isn't throwing much and Johnson is tripping over his own feet and stumbling around in the 1st round, no lateral movement from the man what so ever just jankily moving back and forward and he has 0 control of distance, there is nothing nimble about this guy at all and what counter punching ?, there is no decent counters from him at all. You actually said all this **** and then recommended us to watch a fight which completely proves you wrong.

He doesn't come remotely close to Holyfield or even Golota.

Edit: Did get one thing out of it though
"That Whale was just harpooned" - Larry Merchant, funny ****, glad I watched it now.

[billeau2]

Yes that is a consideration. In fact we can lay it all out.

There was also a 2" height advantage to Bowe, and the weight was roughly equivalent normally with a slight advantage too Bowe (of course the normally more compact Johnson had some advantages inferred by such a state also.)

When you say he was a "pillow puncher", let's first look at the numbers for guidance.. We can see that he was not exactly a smashing machine in this department but we can also see with 27 KO's that he is neither a weak hitter either.

We must remember that Rid**** built his own resume up with notably smaller and somewhat lesser grade opposition than other champs did, therefore inflating Bowe's measure of power.

In fact for all 3 boxers, Vitali, Bowe and Johnson- there can be considerable debate as to how hard each hit. Vitali can be rated much more powerful than some suggest and Bowe much less likewise. Similar can be postulated for Johnson.

Of course, no mention was made in your text aboout Johnson's actual strong suits..

-Speed and footwork
-Counter-punching and reflexes

Even at 260lbs and chubby like against Vitali- we can see how nimble as quick and potentially dangerous an opponent this guy really was (I encourage everybody reading who hasn't so to watch the fight). Of course, whatever his usual weight was- against Vitali he DID weigh 260lbs and was hence, far larger than any Rid**** Bowe.

In prediction of your rebuttal here you will obviously reference laziness and fat weight as being detrimental and irrelevant. But I would counter almost unassailably that by observation of ACTUAL boxing results and history as well as the actual science of boxing also- that fat weight is still weight and conveys certain advantages in a boxing fight as well as significantly reduced disadvantages (i.e. in speed and stamina) than the equivalent extra weight in muscle, counter to some peoples intuition.

Fact is, is that if Rid**** Bowe has fought Kirk Johnson and WON, he would have been right up there with both Andrew Golota and Evander Holyfield as the best opponents he ever beat and you could not even make a full proof argumet that either oof these guys were better wins.

johnson never beat anyone of note...and hardly fought anyone of note and you have to know that. Donald and Ruiz are not really that significant. you constanly use the word "fact" when wagering absurd opinions. and 27 kos of bottom level fighters makes him maybe mediocre at best...

Don't blame me for for fat jokes, your the one who suggests fighters are bigger and better...I have no problem with physique if a guy gets the job done..Odaniar Solis, is a fighter who is fat and could be called talented, Johnson is most definitely not.

[billeau2]

Watching the Johnson fight now and his footwork is actually ****ing hideous, Vitali isn't throwing much and Johnson is tripping over his own feet and stumbling around in the 1st round, no lateral movement from the man what so ever just jankily moving back and forward and he has 0 control of distance, there is nothing nimble about this guy at all and what counter punching ?, there is no decent counters from him at all. You actually said all this **** and then recommended us to watch a fight which completely proves you wrong.

He doesn't come remotely close to Holyfield or even Golota.

Edit: Did get one thing out of it though
"That Whale was just harpooned" - Larry Merchant, funny ****, glad I watched it now.

its a fact, a fact, because elroy not only does not know the difference between an absurd opinion and a fact, but would not know a fact if it bit him on the arse I dare say...

[lazy]

If you want to see the difference between Klitschkos, watch the Sam Peter fights (vitali 2008) & (Wladimir 2010) Vitali landed at nearly double the connect percentage as his little brother, basically hitting Peter at will, forcing him to RTD in 8. Wladimir goes10 rounds with him 2 years later.

Vitali was extremely dominant in all his victories, I don't think he has loss 6 honest rounds in his entire 40+ fight career...that has to be a record of some sort. His +- ratio is insanely ridiculous, on a mayweather level, except at heavyweight!

Wladimir has the hof resume but anyone who watched both fight will know Big Bro was far more dominant.

LOL @ Sam Peter being a measuring tool for dominance.

[Elroy1]

LOL @ Sam Peter being a measuring tool for dominance.

I'm not explicitly saying that Vitali is greater than Wladimir, that is highly debatable, but what this guy said regarding Vitali's dominance was obviously true and about Samuel Peter being a measuring stick is also very relevant.

Except I would posit differently that Peter is more an example of how Vitali can deal better with the more durable, powerful and stronger fighters better than Wladimir whereas Wladimir can deal better with the slick movers and counter-punchers better than Vitali. Different strengths.

Both guys are the epitome of HW boxing in their own respects...

Perhaps the best way to compare Rid**** Bowe and Vitali Klitschko is to analyze both their legacies...

Rid**** Bowes legacy reads as this...

- Mental midget and about as lazy and slovenly as you can get, even installing a BBQ in his bedroom!

- Ducked all hard punchers until the very end of his career, made a miscalculation and got absolutely spanked 2ce.

- Career defining fights were against a former cruiser whom he out-talled and outweighed massively (and still lost 1ce)

- Had a thin resume

- Most importantly, held the record for being the most cowardly and shameful boxer in all of history and ripping off the entire boxing world of the superfight of the era by running from LEnnox Lewis, even dumping the belt in the trash to avoid him!!! A record not broken until the disgraceful antics of Floyd Mayweather in our current era.

And the legacy of Vitali...

- Never really non-controversially lost a single boxing match entire career.

- Only technically lost 2 boxing matches under dubious circumstances, in which he was up in rounds and points on both occasions.

- Retired LEnnox lewis- the only time any fear was ever apparent on the former champ entire career.

- Dominantly beat the living crap out of every single opponent he ever faced.

- Fought among the heftiest and highest quality opponents of any boxer.

- Never been KOed or never even been once knocked off his FEET in any boxing match.

- Never losing more than 2 rounds in any boxing match and in fact hardly even getting HIT in most boxing matches, displaying one of the most successful combinations of offensive and defensive boxing ever seen in the sport.

I think this basically sums it all up.

[billeau2]

I'm not explicitly saying that Vitali is greater than Wladimir, that is highly debatable, but what this guy said regarding Vitali's dominance was obviously true and about Samuel Peter being a measuring stick is also very relevant.

Except I would posit differently that Peter is more an example of how Vitali can deal better with the more durable, powerful and stronger fighters better than Wladimir whereas Wladimir can deal better with the slick movers and counter-punchers better than Vitali. Different strengths.

Both guys are the epitome of HW boxing in their own respects...

Perhaps the best way to compare Rid**** Bowe and Vitali Klitschko is to analyze both their legacies...

Rid**** Bowes legacy reads as this...

- Mental midget and about as lazy and slovenly as you can get, even installing a BBQ in his bedroom!

- Ducked all hard punchers until the very end of his career, made a miscalculation and got absolutely spanked 2ce.

- Career defining fights were against a former cruiser whom he out-talled and outweighed massively (and still lost 1ce)

- Had a thin resume

- Most importantly, held the record for being the most cowardly and shameful boxer in all of history and ripping off the entire boxing world of the superfight of the era by running from LEnnox Lewis, even dumping the belt in the trash to avoid him!!! A record not broken until the disgraceful antics of Floyd Mayweather in our current era.

And the legacy of Vitali...

- Never really non-controversially lost a single boxing match entire career.

- Only technically lost 2 boxing matches under dubious circumstances, in which he was up in rounds and points on both occasions.

- Retired LEnnox lewis- the only time any fear was ever apparent on the former champ entire career.

- Dominantly beat the living crap out of every single opponent he ever faced.

- Fought among the heftiest and highest quality opponents of any boxer.

- Never been KOed or never even been once knocked off his FEET in any boxing match.

- Never losing more than 2 rounds in any boxing match and in fact hardly even getting HIT in most boxing matches, displaying one of the most successful combinations of offensive and defensive boxing ever seen in the sport.

I think this basically sums it all up.

And Sam Peter wasn't lazy? and pray tell what technical details about Sam Peter.... a man who was matched by Toney, not even a legit heavy.... are so outstanding? Peter has some power....thats about it. Half the time he has trained enough to present as an opponent the other half he gasses and canot throw with any speed to speak of. And footwork? I Peter has none to speak of Elroy. Any guy with good feet avoide Peter like the plaque on sunday.

[LacedUp]

I would say Bowe, but very close.

[Elroy1]

And Sam Peter wasn't lazy? and pray tell what technical details about Sam Peter.... a man who was matched by Toney, not even a legit heavy.... are so outstanding? Peter has some power....thats about it. Half the time he has trained enough to present as an opponent the other half he gasses and canot throw with any speed to speak of. And footwork? I Peter has none to speak of Elroy. Any guy with good feet avoide Peter like the plaque on sunday.

Peter also falls into the lazy camp, no argument on that score.

Peter was not especially technical at all, again we are not at odds.

Toney was certainly a legit HW when he fought Peter by definition of weight and he was able to be so effective at HW despite fattening up from much lighter because he was an exceptionlly crafty and skilled boxer. Mind you, for at the time Toney and PEter being about the SAME size- Peter beat Toney 2ce, once by a smidge, next convincingly! That tells us that there are SOME qualities about Peter that are much better than you'd like to believe.

Peter has some terrific power but also high aggressiveness, tactical manuevers to minimize or avoid damage whilst applying pressure, heart and guts to execute such a risk style and also granite chin to be able to absorb punches from the harest hitting eras opponents on record.

Your quip about Peter only being an opponent half the time is challenged by his actual record which shows he rarely ever lost and then only to upper eschelon fighters.

Peter's style is not based around footwork, and of course there is often a confusion about what real footwork really is anyway which was promoted by certain American boxers in the past which to the now much more highly developed boxing communities world-wide now is better described as "running".

Armed with this type of running footwork we could imagine weaker boxers running for their lives against Peter, yet history shows that this is not the best strategy to effective deal with such an opponent (like Ali vs Frazier for example). Watching how VK, with what American style viewers might also consider t have poor footwork, dispatched Peter we see how the job can be done far more effectively.

Control of distance is the key to fighting a guy like PEter, which is sometimes only masked by running away which smetimes goes hand in hand but the true cause should be sought f course.