Rid**** Bowe or Vitali Klitschko. Who ranks higher?

[Pugilist_Spec]

I KNOW how Peter vs Ali would go...

Do you remember that GREAT old FOTC?

You remember the first few moments of that fight? Rewatch it now. Except I ONLY want you to watch the first 30 seconds.

See that first time Frazier connected with Ali?

Similarly with the Shavers fight.. See the first moment of the first round that Shavers connected with Ali?

That's it...

That's the entire fight!

A fight with Ali and PEter is measured in how many seconds Ali can survive, not in rounds.

There is no version of Ali who could possibly hang with PEter under ANY circumstances! All the poisoning and rope loosening farcial judging and reffing in the world could save him.

I am sorry but it is simply physicaly impossible for Ali to even fight Peter let alone win.

This is just a fact.

This would be a very valid argument if Peter actually had any sort of punching technique or power. Too bad he doesn't.

Why are you using 70s Ali?

60s Ali is the one that should be used for H2H match-ups.

Needless to say, Peter, with the feet of a geriatric and hands stuck in cement probably wouldn't land a single punch on Ali and would get cut to ribbons in what would be by far the biggest shut-out in any heavyweight fight ever.

[Elroy1]

This would be a very valid argument if Peter actually had any sort of punching technique or power. Too bad he doesn't.

Peter was one of the hardest hitters in HW history and far harder than your so called "prime" Foreman. I already addressed the power diminishing nut bag argument above invoking the incredibly biased double standards in use by the OTNB.

Why are you using 70s Ali?

I chose arbitrarily. However this is Ali's TRUE prime. Where his stats combine to produce a boxer that is capable of beating the most high quality opponents possible for him. And this is also the Ali who fought the best opponents and scored his best win.

60s Ali is the one that should be used for H2H match-ups.

60's Ali can only be used for Cruiser match ups. He has absolutely nothing in common with any modern HW except that he was at one point in time, nominally CALLED a "HW". He was so weak he would be immediately KOed by any modern HW and in fact never even fought decent opponent.

Needless to say, Peter, with the feet of a geriatric and hands stuck in cement probably wouldn't land a single punch on Ali and would get cut to ribbons in what would be by far the biggest shut-out in any heavyweight fight ever.

Rather than try belittle you I want to do a thought experiment for all people reading this. Have you ever SEEN 60's Ali fight??

I have.

And there are 2 things I noticed.

(a) Ali's 60's opposition is some of the weakest and bummiest opposition ever assembled. They were 90% cruisers whom Peter would be unable to **** out for safety reasons and most of them earned their fights with Ali by beating complete bums or even LOSING fights prior!! And despite them being sub 200lbs on average, Peter- at 240lbs is FASTER of feet and hands than MOST of them!!!

THOSE are the facts!

(b) ALL of Ali's 60's opponents landed on Ali at will as soon as he was in range, even by the slowest punches from the shortest opponents. Some of them even bashed him and one of them Jones even beat him. But the most convinceing evidence comes from Liston. Liston fought Ali to a DRAW until the fight had to be stopped for Liston's shoulder injury. Every time Liston was in range he hit Clay who ran away. This Liston was the slowest championship level opponent in history.

I repeat, there has never been a slower top level contender than Sonny Liston! Yet Liston and Ali were EVEN on the scorecards at time of stoppage!

The ONLY difference is that the power of Peter is so much greater than anything Ali ever faced at ANY stage of his career that Peter KO's Ali, any version with the first connected hard punch.

Mildenberger pasted your 60's Ali for christ sake. As did Cooper. What the hell do you think Peter is gonna do?

Take a look at this clip...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao_AvEvjhkI

You see the larger size and fitter boxers Peter wastes than Ali?

I see that PEter, not too good on the outside is actually BETTER defensively than Ali HIMSELF! defensively INSIDE. Watch PEter carefully as he applies pressure but is on guard and moves his head in anticipation of a heavy punch.

The main difference between Frazier/Shaver and PEter is that Peter TRIES NOT to get hit whereas the former two take punches as a given.

That strategy only works if your opponents are weak like Ali's!

Ali/Clay never fought any opponent like Peter...

And he would never have WANTED to.

[Pugilist_Spec]

Peter was one of the hardest hitters in HW history and far harder than your so called "prime" Foreman. I already addressed the power diminishing nut bag argument above invoking the incredibly biased double standards in use by the OTNB.

I'm sure he was...I mean looking at all those great names that he knocked out...Julis Long, Taurus Sykes, Chris Isaac...truly a murderers row of fighters to say the least!

I chose arbitrarily. However this is Ali's TRUE prime. Where his stats combine to produce a boxer that is capable of beating the most high quality opponents possible for him. And this is also the Ali who fought the best opponents and scored his best win.

Except he was clearly, empirically better in the 60s than he was in the 70s. Duh! Larry Holmes fought his best opponents in the late 80s and early 90s, is that Larry's prime?

60's Ali can only be used for Cruiser match ups. He has absolutely nothing in common with any modern HW except that he was at one point in time, nominally CALLED a "HW". He was so weak he would be immediately KOed by any modern HW and in fact never even fought decent opponent.

Ali weighed in 210+ pounds for his last 3 bouts pre-exile, what the hell are you talking about?

(a) Ali's 60's opposition is some of the weakest and bummiest opposition ever assembled. They were 90% cruisers whom Peter would be unable to **** out for safety reasons and most of them earned their fights with Ali by beating complete bums or even LOSING fights prior!! And despite them being sub 200lbs on average, Peter- at 240lbs is FASTER of feet and hands than MOST of them!!!

It wasn't the most gifted era but he had some good opponents to fight. Terell would outbox Peter, Liston would knock him out. Patterson would probably outbox him as well, as chinny as he is those slow-motion left hooks and right hands wouldn't catch him in his sleep.

(b) ALL of Ali's 60's opponents landed on Ali at will as soon as he was in range, even by the slowest punches from the shortest opponents. Some of them even bashed him and one of them Jones even beat him. But the most convinceing evidence comes from Liston. Liston fought Ali to a DRAW until the fight had to be stopped for Liston's shoulder injury. Every time Liston was in range he hit Clay who ran away. This Liston was the slowest championship level opponent in history.

Provide evidence.

The little Liston landed was mostly due to him rubbing a burning substance on Ali's eyes which left him visually impaired for a portion of the bout.

60s Ali was quick on his feet, with great reflexes and he could fight and counter on the back foot. Peter would be outmatched on every level.

I see that PEter, not too good on the outside is actually BETTER defensively than Ali HIMSELF! defensively INSIDE. Watch PEter carefully as he applies pressure but is on guard and moves his head in anticipation of a heavy punch.

The main difference between Frazier/Shaver and PEter is that Peter TRIES NOT to get hit whereas the former two take punches as a given.

That strategy only works if your opponents are weak like Ali's!

Ali/Clay never fought any opponent like Peter...

And he would never have WANTED to.

Fraziers defense was ten times better than Peters. Frazier was elusive and difficult to hit with his bob and weave. Peter was a punching bag against the only top level fighter he ever fought, Wlad and Vitali. Posting videos of him knocking out cans proves nothing.

[juggernaut666]

Ali versus Peter would be the most embarassing, one-sided beatdown in the history of the sport. There is literally nothing Peter brings to the table that can trouble Ali. Nothing.

Peter would be a bigger type pressure fighter than Frazier was...Had Ali gave Frazier that beat down you would have a point...Frazier actually defeated Ali twice, the second one was clearly not scored realistically. The double standadrd argument can be seen with Chuvalo..Alis pressure fighter of the 60's who actually had nothing to offer. Hw was known for being Canadas Hw champ and being used for a punching bag more than his actual boxing skills.Yet he is sworn in as an all time great for getting beat up so much even Patterson who was not known to take a good punch even defeated him. Chuvalo simply lacked punching power enough to stop Ali.could Peter? Well I cant see why not,when you had 180 pounders drop Ali....you are underestimating other eras!

[Pugilist_Spec]

Peter would be a bigger type pressure fighter than Frazier was...Had Ali gave Frazier that beat down you would have a point...Frazier actually defeated Ali twice, the second one was clearly not scored realistically. The double standadrd argument can be seen with Chuvalo..Alis pressure fighter of the 60's who actually had nothing to offer. Hw was known for being Canadas Hw champ and being used for a punching bag more than his actual boxing skills.Yet he is sworn in as an all time great for getting beat up so much even Patterson who was not known to take a good punch even defeated him.

Except there is a massive difference between Frazier and Peter.

Frazier, small, elusive, quick, great bob and weave, great stamina, could keep up relentless pace for 15 rounds...

Peter big, slow, lumbering, no stamina past round 4, no movement, hands in clay... Ali would EMBARASS Peter. Anyone who actually understands boxing knows that.

Peter could do absolutely nothing to Wlad when he moved. He just walked forward and ate shots. 60s Ali with his quick feet and hands would have a field day out there.

[juggernaut666]

Except there is a massive difference between Frazier and Peter.

Frazier, small, elusive, quick, great bob and weave, great stamina, could keep up relentless pace for 15 rounds...

Peter big, slow, lumbering, no stamina past round 4, no movement, hands in clay... Ali would EMBARASS Peter. Anyone who actually understands boxing knows that.

Peter could do absolutely nothing to Wlad when he moved. He just walked forward and ate shots. 60s Ali with his quick feet and hands would have a field day out there.

Ali could barley keep Chuvalo off him..chuvalo was as flat footed slow puncher as they come.sorry but that is a double standard...Wlads was 6'6 and 80 inch reach advantage or so...he has length and hurts his opponents when he hits them....Ali ? Not so much he needs accumulative shots to do so along the way off eating them....If Peter got to Wlad he would get to Ali ,theres no question there. Weather he can last is another.....just cause Vitali battered that does not hold true for Ali,he wouldn't have those physical attributes...he would need for Peter to get tired the question is will he? I would say no he wouldn't chase Ali around the ring,taking shoys from Wlad certainly would drain you more than any running around would ...theres your proof right there.

[Pugilist_Spec]

Ali could barley keep Chuvalo off him..chuvalo was as flat footed slow puncher as they come.dsorry but that is a double standard...Wlads was 6'6 and 80 inch reach advantage or so...he has length and hurts his opponents when he hits them....Ali ? Not so much he needs accumulative shots to do so along the way off eating them....If Peter got to Wlad he would get to Akli ,theres no question there. Weather he can last is another.....just cause Vitali battered that does not hold true for Ali,he wouldn't have those physical attributes...he would need for Peter to get tired the question is will he? I would say no he wouldn't chase Ali around the ring,taking shoys from Wlad certainly would drain you more than any running around would ...theres your proof right there.

How does Chuvalo get into this equation? How is he similar to Peter?

Peter could do nothing against a mover. Wlad at times would bounce around the ring doing nothing and Peter would just plod forward.

I agree Ali can't hurt Peter significantly. But he would hit him and hit him and pile up points and win. Simple as. It wouldn't really be competitive.

[juggernaut666]

How does Chuvalo get into this equation? How is he similar to Peter?

Peter could do nothing against a mover. Wlad at times would bounce around the ring doing nothing and Peter would just plod forward.

I agree Ali can't hurt Peter significantly. But he would hit him and hit him and pile up points and win. Simple as. It wouldn't really be competitive.

Chuvalo is Alis pressure fighter that's how. You say Peter wont land anything yet almost every slow guy landed on ali and they weren't even as big size or length wise as Peter was...If Peter was slow as you say do you really think he would land on Wlad? That is false. Ali would be in for a very dangerous night win or lose.

[Pugilist_Spec]

Chuvalo is Alis pressure fighter that's how. You say Peter wont land anything yet almost every slow guy landed on ali and they weren't even as big size or length wise as Peter was...If Peter was slow as you say do you really think he would land on Wlad? That is false. Ali would be in for a very dangerous night win or lose.

Not landing anything is obviously an exaggeration. Barely landing anything is more like it. Look at Ali vs Liston. How much did Liston land? Ali that night was the most elusive heavyweight of all time.

Even if he hit Ali he wouldn't really hurt him badly. Dangerous night? No.

[juggernaut666]

Not landing anything is obviously an exaggeration. Barely landing anything is more like it. Look at Ali vs Liston. How much did Liston land? Ali that night was the most elusive heavyweight of all time.

Even if he hit Ali he wouldn't really hurt him badly. Dangerous night? No.

Liston was never fast and if anyone threw little in stop and go motion it was him ,you are also using 64/65 liston and obviously one of those fights he was not wanting to win...I don't see where Liston gives Ali more trouble.

The only time ive seen Peter lose to an Ali type fighter was Chambers, but he was also nearly 270 pounds not his 240 fight weight. And I still think he won that fight.