Which fighters historically do you feel are underrated

[Anthony342]

It just goes to show how regular media sources for the masses are on such a base level. McGoorty the truth is that I know this for a fact being I have written for these sources in the martial arts. I have written a post about this and its not to toot my horn, it is to make the point that you are asking about.

When I was writing regularly for Black Belt (among others) which is the most widely circulated martial arts mag, I would deliberately make sure that everything I wrote had a level of content that an average media biased individual would grasp and the reading level would be about that of a very bright fourth grader...thats not really an exxageration by much.

I can almost be certain that people writing for the media making these lists are generally speaking of the same ilk and do not have the knowledge as historians to know about fighters like Les Darcy, hence, the exclusion. Most of the people I wrote with, wrote glorified press releases with the same basic dribble repeated and repackages with a few new technical details in the photos.

Heres a hypothetical example of what 90% of the material looks like in the most widely circulated martial art mag in the world today:

"chim KUm Lee was the third child in a family and his uncle passed the deadly art of egg fu down to him... Lee states " the difference in our art is that we use all ranges of combat, kicks to the outside, punches and grappling closer." But Lees art has an additional twist as he says " we also consider the spiritual side and have meditation techniques that help build a strong mind for combat." (then a few picks showing karate like movements are displayed...yada yada yada....

First off, what is so remarkable about this technical detail? Nothing!!!! its common sense. And what art does not claim to have some form of mental conditioning? Maybe MMA? Most individuals cant even see that they assume martial arts is meditating so that when an art does not they assume a false dichotomy of traditional/nontraditional...and the media plays right into that false dichotomy.

the reason why posters like Jughead get so angry and consider analysis on any meaningful level to be threatening is because THIS IS THE SHIZZLE PEOPLE ARE GESTATED ON!" Most people can't even take the time to read a real article more than a few pages long and get fed this shizzle regulalry and expect to hear it regurgitated back.

So when a case is made for a fighter that is not a media darling....Well try to critisize Bruce Lee in the martial arts media for example. Ever hear of "Riley Hawkins?" he is my "Les Darcey." There is a picture of Sensie Hawkins, who taught one of my teachers, with Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris...but you don't hear of this man unless you really know who the great fighters and innovaters were in the karate circles back in the day. Riley was so good that he actually taught Karate techniques to the Okinawans to modernize the kumite applications of the art. He impressed them that much. His students were feared by all during the dojo busting period which made baltimore an honest place to teach....cause if you taught shizzle you got a the visit!

Why don't we hear of people like hawkins and Darcey? Well I know with Riley it was a combination of things... At first it was racial (he is a black man), then it was the fact that he did most of his work at home in Baltimore. And then it was the fact that there was no BS. No crazy claims, just very rough,elite training that drove off those who had ego or designs. But the fact of the matter is those in the know would put Riley hawkins on a proverbial short list. I can see with Darcey the same applies.

Speaking of not mentioned as much in the martial arts community, what about Gokor Chivichyan, who I read still trains, some in MMA and retired undefeated in no holds barred combat matches?

[sonnyboyx2]

The most underrated boxer of all time today is Les Darcy, outside of his homeland he is virtually forgotten and misses out on 9 out of ten lists these days yet it was not always the case, Darcy was once in every list of the greatest fighters, especially middleweight lists where he was always ranked near the top and in some cases at the very top, even in the late 60's he was on all these lists yet now a few decades later he hardly ever gets put on a list, or is even mentioned in 9 out of 10 boxing books... it is the most mysterious thing in boxing to me since Mysterious Billy Smith was fighting.

Les Darcy should be hailed as one of the greatest fighters of all times.. But just like you say, he is forgotten, never mentioned. Yet we have to accept fighters like "Murders Row & Charley Burley" as ATGs just because someone wrote a book about them during the last 20yrs... i tend to only read boxing books & Magazines on fighters which were written at the time of their fighting day's. I take the Charley Burley stuff as pure fabrication.

[The Old LefHook]

Les Darcy should be hailed as one of the greatest fighters of all times.. But just like you say, he is forgotten, never mentioned. Yet we have to accept fighters like "Murders Row & Charley Burley" as ATGs just because someone wrote a book about them during the last 20yrs... i tend to only read boxing books & Magazines on fighters which were written at the time of their fighting day's. I take the Charley Burley stuff as pure fabrication.

It is amazing what you can do when you try. Quite nice.

[JimEarl]

Harold Johnson

Fought all the best and beat them sometimes.

Tommy Loughran

Spoilers aren't well appreciated but his record at lightheavyweight speaks for itself.

Jimmy Young

Another spoiler. I won betting against some surprised housemates and friends the day he beat big George, lol. Flabbergasted is what they were. Did Ali land one punch against this guy? I didn't see it.

[Suckmedry]

Les Darcy get overrated in australia though. theres no footage of the guy and its 99.9% certain he was just a tough bastard with 0 skill.

[McGoorty]

Les Darcy get overrated in australia though. theres no footage of the guy and its 99.9% certain he was just a tough bastard with 0 skill.

Mate, before you go off half ****ed you need to check on things, I have videos of Darcy in action and I made a great youtube video showing clips from all the remaining footage of him (as far as I know of, there maybe more)... I have 8 full rounds out of the 9 Darcy fought against George Chip, about 7 minutes of the second McGoorty fight, a few minutes of one of the Clabby fights, footage of him against Dave Smith in a bout and training and there is footage of his fight with KO Brown,. Yes he was ultra tough but you are dead wrong about his skills, he had plenty and he could box or go slugger, he could adapt to his opponent, not saying he is Ray Robinson's equal in skill, but please go look for my video on youtube, it is called Les Darcy-Kid Genius. Please watch it a few times and keep an open mind, on film he looks better than most from the early days, far from clownish I assure you, it is up to you to make up your mind but you will see an incredibly strong fighter, keep in mind the footage is old and sometimes is a bit jumpy.. (there were less frames per second than more modern film).

[McGoorty]

Les Darcy should be hailed as one of the greatest fighters of all times.. But just like you say, he is forgotten, never mentioned. Yet we have to accept fighters like "Murders Row & Charley Burley" as ATGs just because someone wrote a book about them during the last 20yrs... i tend to only read boxing books & Magazines on fighters which were written at the time of their fighting day's. I take the Charley Burley stuff as pure fabrication.

I don't know a lot about Burley but I do think from what I have seen that was indeed skillful but I see the point you are trying to make, I agree that contemporary opinions mean more than those by people made decades after. Yes no doubt Darcy should be hailed as one of the greatest, we are quite lucky here that there is more footage of him than most of his contemporaries, the fact that he has so much and Greb has none must be an indicator of his greatness and an indicator that the Greb legend keeps growing and lack of footage helps the Greb case (I deeply lament that there is no footage of Greb in a real fight, the little clip of him sparring makes him look really really bad, maybe he was just clowning but....). people thought so much of Darcy that what we have of him is preserved by caring fans, why is there none of Greb, Mike Gibbons and co.... Eddie McGoorty and Clabby and KO Brown and Dave Smith and George Chip have footage of them only because they happened to be fighting the great one (Darcy). we are also fortunate that there are written accounts of virtually all his fights so we get a picture of how exciting his fights were and what happened, a couple of accounts are controversial and two opponents didn't help by changing their initial stories about what happened.. I refer to Eddie McGoorty and Jeff Smith.. in Smiths case obviously he needed to come up with a version of his two fights that don't make him seem like a C***, Les Darcy said that the only opponent he ever despised and wanted to fight again so he could severely punish him was Jeff Smith, and I have little doubt that Smith was very lucky he didn't get a third fight with Darcy as Darcy was a lot better a fighter (in 1917) than when he was when he destroyed Smith in two brutal rounds, but I wish Smith did take the fight that was offered to him while Darcy was in the United States so we could have finally laid that to rest.............................................. ... .................................... McGoorty actually said that he thought he would beat Darcy once he got safely home but it is very clear he had no hope of beating Darcy as he gave everything he had in two fights with Darcy and was severely thrashed both times... hey just look at how Darcy slaughters Eddie on film.. four knockdowns in what became the last round of that fight, you can see Darcy just brutalising him, it is one of the most dominant performances in ring history caught on film (he looks like a white Mike Tyson crossed with a George Foreman) yet Eddie was a great fighter. The film of Les vs Clabby is a bit disappointing as Darcy cruised in that fight and Clabby admitted he refused to try and throw big punches because he knew Darcy would have gone very hard on Jimmy and he would get badly hurt, besides the two were great mates and I don't think any fighter admired Darcy more than Clabby did, incidentally I have had some correspondence with his grandson, Jimmy Clabby III so I have some inside info on Clabby who became a long term resident in Australia and was deeply involved in the Sydney horse racing scene. Anyway Darcy isn't forgotten and he is still sometimes discussed but surely any list of the greatest middleweights has to include Darcy and if not the writer needs to explain why not, I so often see lists these days by biased writers... I cannot understand why Bert Sugar for instance has never mentioned Darcy or included him in his lists, for gods sake he doesn't even have Darcy in his top 100 and not even in the list he made of those who he thought were unlucky to miss out,, I can only surmise that Sugar doesn't know half of what he claims to know about boxing history. To this day though Darcy is still regarded by most of the Australian boxing community as the greatest boxer to ever come out of Australia, and that does mean something because we have produced Bob Fitzsimmons (not an Aussie but he began his career here and learned how to fight from the great Larry Foley).. Larry Foley... Peter Jackson, Paddy Slavin, Young Griffo (those three also Foley proteges)... Vic Patrick, Dave Sands, Jimmy Carruthers, Lionel Rose, Jeff Fenech Tony Mundine Sr (lets not mention his son) Jerry Jerome, Tommy Uren, Johnny Famechon, Kostya Tszyu (all his pro career he was an Aussie citizen and resident), Michael Katsides, Lester Ellis, Barry Michael and Vic Darchinyan to mention just a few.

[McGoorty]

Harold Johnson

Fought all the best and beat them sometimes.

Tommy Loughran

Spoilers aren't well appreciated but his record at lightheavyweight speaks for itself.

Jimmy Young

Another spoiler. I won betting against some surprised housemates and friends the day he beat big George, lol. Flabbergasted is what they were. Did Ali land one punch against this guy? I didn't see it.

Loughran was very good wasn't he, and Johnson was well feared by most in his division.

[IronDanHamza]

Harold Johnson

Fought all the best and beat them sometimes.

Tommy Loughran

Spoilers aren't well appreciated but his record at lightheavyweight speaks for itself.

Jimmy Young

Another spoiler. I won betting against some surprised housemates and friends the day he beat big George, lol. Flabbergasted is what they were. Did Ali land one punch against this guy? I didn't see it.

He beat them often.

Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jimmy Bivins, Bert Lytell, Willie Pastrano and many others.

He was 1-4 with Moore but every one of them were close decisions. Other than the 5th one obviously where he was stopped but before he was stopped he was beating Moore handily.

Johnson is an ATG so great pick.

[JimEarl]

He beat them often.

Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jimmy Bivins, Bert Lytell, Willie Pastrano and many others.

He was 1-4 with Moore but every one of them were close decisions. Other than the 5th one obviously where he was stopped but before he was stopped he was beating Moore handily.

Johnson is an ATG so great pick.

I'm a fan of Willie's and would have to agree with the two of the judges decision in that one that the steady jabs carried the day for him. Great feat or not Willie's record doesn't match that of Harold Johnson.

------------------------------

And I should probably add Aaron Pryor to my list as he is often overlooked, being a 140 lb champion, when lists of the greats are compiled by the fans.