Which fighters do you feel are historically overrated

[billeau2]

Another matter of opinion.

True but seriously, your opinion in this case is about on parity with me saying that Dempsy and Tyson were cautious boxer punchers who would wait their opponent out instead of take them out. Its just an amusing irony because you picked the one guy who you could in fact attribute any skill that exists in the ring....I mean if you had said "Robinson was a puncher" well ok, Or "Robinson was a Ko artist" yeah....Or "Robinson was a tactician"... But to say the man was a runner is maybe the one thing he was not. Lol.

But you know what? thats ok, thats an opinion. but you prolly will get called out on that opinion!

[Tony Trick-Pony]

True but seriously, your opinion in this case is about on parity with me saying that Dempsy and Tyson were cautious boxer punchers who would wait their opponent out instead of take them out. Its just an amusing irony because you picked the one guy who you could in fact attribute any skill that exists in the ring....I mean if you had said "Robinson was a puncher" well ok, Or "Robinson was a Ko artist" yeah....Or "Robinson was a tactician"... But to say the man was a runner is maybe the one thing he was not. Lol.

But you know what? thats ok, thats an opinion. but you prolly will get called out on that opinion!

I think you should read what I wrote first. I never called him a "runner." His style involved a lot of moving and dancing, which influenced later fighters who in turn, did turn up the volume on it and started to run around the ring and dance, instead of fighting. Ali definitely expanded on this. I'm not saying that Robinson was the only one either, but he may have been the most successful and I don't think runners are good for the sport, but in his day, running had not really started and he was not a "runner", but helped to influence others engaging in the cowardly style, but not to say he was a coward. He fought hard and well but look at his fights with Fullmer and Basilio. He got tore up on the inside often. Just because you don't get knocked out, does not mean you win. Those smaller men handled him because they outfought him on the inside. He did not look like the greatest of all time in those fights, but that's okay. I think he was great, but it's just that so many jump right on board, saying he was the best ever. In this guy's opinion(just an opinion), he was not. He had holes and vulnerability just like anybody else. I also have to point out a trend here which is interesting. He quit in some of his best years to dance while Ali quit to protest in some of his best years and Leonard had lots of long bouts of inactivity in his good years and Mayweather retired in the midst of his career and Ward basically retired for two years. All guys I would say love doing lots of things other than boxing and all with styles that involve a lot of movement. Robinson admitted one time that he only fought for the money and would rather be doing something else. Doesn't sound like the best of all time to me. I would picture the best of all time living at the gym and loving every gritty second of it.

[McGoorty]

Les Darcy? Doesn't really have the resume to be in the conversation does he? Seems to have never accomplished too much beyond the domestic level.

What ????? mate you just showed you haven't a bloody clue what you are talking about... domestic ???? wtf ?... he was a world champion beating all the best middleweights on earth, he beat all but two US MW's who ran from him, do some research before you comment on things you don'y understand or risk looking silly. .............. PS there were two versions of the MW title then and the one Darcy held had more credibilty, just that the Yanks rewrote history to try and discredit the bloke who made all the best americans look ordinary...... they were not ordinary either... just research the big names in the division from that time.

[Scott9945]

Robinson admitted one time that he only fought for the money and would rather be doing something else. Doesn't sound like the best of all time to me. I would picture the best of all time living at the gym and loving every gritty second of it.

I'm sorry, but that sounds very naïve.

[McGoorty]

***(Originally Posted by ShoulderRoll View Post
Les Darcy? Doesn't really have the resume to be in the conversation does he? Seems to have never accomplished too much beyond the domestic level.)))))
.......................................... .................................................. ...... ........................ As for resume his is one of the best there ever was, Darcy always deserves to be in these conversations

[Tony Trick-Pony]

I'm sorry, but that sounds very naïve.

Why are you sorry?

[soul_survivor]

Which fighters do you feel are historically overrated and why?

Grebb, Langford, Conn to name a few.

[Scott9945]

Why are you sorry?

I was trying not to sound insulting. Won't make that mistake again.

[billeau2]

I think you should read what I wrote first. I never called him a "runner." His style involved a lot of moving and dancing, which influenced later fighters who in turn, did turn up the volume on it and started to run around the ring and dance, instead of fighting. Ali definitely expanded on this. I'm not saying that Robinson was the only one either, but he may have been the most successful and I don't think runners are good for the sport, but in his day, running had not really started and he was not a "runner", but helped to influence others engaging in the cowardly style, but not to say he was a coward. He fought hard and well but look at his fights with Fullmer and Basilio. He got tore up on the inside often. Just because you don't get knocked out, does not mean you win. Those smaller men handled him because they outfought him on the inside. He did not look like the greatest of all time in those fights, but that's okay. I think he was great, but it's just that so many jump right on board, saying he was the best ever. In this guy's opinion(just an opinion), he was not. He had holes and vulnerability just like anybody else. I also have to point out a trend here which is interesting. He quit in some of his best years to dance while Ali quit to protest in some of his best years and Leonard had lots of long bouts of inactivity in his good years and Mayweather retired in the midst of his career and Ward basically retired for two years. All guys I would say love doing lots of things other than boxing and all with styles that involve a lot of movement. Robinson admitted one time that he only fought for the money and would rather be doing something else. Doesn't sound like the best of all time to me. I would picture the best of all time living at the gym and loving every gritty second of it.

Well....is he a runner, a coward, or a dancer? You can say that you don't like an evasive dancer and that RR was a mover, and this is a little different characterization than a "runner." There is a difference here.

You have to realize that basilio and Fulmer were two highly succesful infighters...Even Ray Robinson was not going to be more expert at this range than these two so it is no slight on him to not be as succesful at this range...I mean Robinson also had great punch stats but he wasn't going to thow more per a round than Hank Armstrong.

Actually one of my favorite boxing scribes, Joe reine, a man whom I would even enjoy reading his grocery list lol, said that Ray Robinson famously said he didn't enjoy fighting. There is a famous short story written by Oscar Wilde of a very talented boxer who also happens to be a violin virtuosa... talk about a conflict!

Not everyone puts Ray Robinson at the top. There are many who see Hank Armstrong as fighting ugly but superior, among others. I do think that when evaluating the boxer punchers the reason Robinson was lauded had to do with his ability to punch hard moving in all directions, to set up his punches with feints and angles and....and this is a big one, ko power in both hands. Robinson just had...everything.

So for example if we took Roy Jones, we have another extraordinary talent who could do many things, but alas Roy had weaknesses, even if one believes he was past it with Tarver.

I don't think its easy to appreciate the view that a fighter's feelings about what they do should influence how his achievements are viewed, but its a way to look at things I suppose. So its all good.

[McGoorty]

Grebb, Langford, Conn to name a few.

Fine to name some guys, and you named big names, those guys have lots of fans here, but the thread asked who and just as importantly WHY, so why do you think this, you must have your reasons