Sonnyboy's Lennox Lewis appreciation thread.

[sonnyboyx2]

The author QUOTES other "top authors" the article is written by one writer Sony. He quotes them selectively and the issue of Lewis' physique is basically one sentence in the article...at most. Most of the article deals with qualifying greatness and how Tunney, Holmes, and Lewis fit into a ranking of great fighters.

There is no specific proof in this article, or from any other source, that makes Lewis appear to be extraordinary in using steriods, as compared to the general population of fighters...thats a fact. The bottom line is fighters do use steroids, Lewis may have done so to a degree that most fighters do so, with no extra ordinary proof of changes due to any steriod use. Compare this to Holyfield, for example and we see a guy who shows much more evidence of "juicing."

I have read this article before, and boy its nice to see Tunney getting his due!

Your not going to like hearing this Sony...but you really have no concept of what it means to present proof of an assertion. Even an anecdotal source can be great, when it is used properly but you fail to do so.

If this is because of language issues than I don't hold this against you. Proof of an assertion might be an opinion that shows reasoning. Or maybe a trainer who claims Lewis was doing this and cites evidence. What you have presented is an article validating lewis as a fighter who arguably is not an ATG. The article is not particularly compelling, but thats another story because it does make its point intelligently.

you are not the only poster who does not seem to know what a fact is, but it does not really take a lot of time to understand if one is willing to learn.

The following is from your own wonderful country and the BBC which is perhaps the most respected news agency to the conventional public. Take a gander at it Sony and you can thank me later.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/skillswise/fact...ct-and-opinion

Once again, just a lot of hot air and falsehoods from you in reply. The article is by several boxing journalists like i mentioned.. Who state clearly they feel Lewis was a "Juicer"... Sad really that you cannot accept someone like Jorgenson making such a claim. i have read many of his articles over the years and rate him highly... I never brought the issue of steroid abuse into this thread. Joeyzagz brought it into the thread... However you Bill you choose what you reply to mate... you make posts then you ignore when i make a reply to you, so once again i will post just for you...

Bill, are you claiming Ruddock was NOT Damaged Goods?

are you claiming Morrison had NOT been exposed by getting KOd in the first round by Michael Bent??

are you claiming Michael Grant was NOT exposed by getting floored 3 times in the opening round by Andrew Golota???

are you claiming Holyfield was NOT past his prime in 1999?

are you claiming John Ruiz who fought in 12 World Title fights was NOT a better challenge than Grant????

are you claiming Chris Byrd who defeated Holyfield & Tua far easier than Lewis did, was not a legitimate No1 challenger for Lewis???

are you claiming Shannon Briggs who was knocked out in less than 3rds by journeyman Darryll Wilson was a Class A fighter???

Bill you are wrong again mate.... i have never ever been owned. the threads you are talking about are discussing wether Lewis avoided Mike Tyson and Rid**** Bowe during the 1990s... my opinion is Lewis ducked them both.. other posters believe Tyson & Bowe ducked Lewis.. but what cannot ever be denied is the facts of Lewis career and the quality of his opponents, which i have pointed out on this here particular thread.

[Scott9945]

Prime fights, prime years is when i took the fighters weight. Nice try, but another fail from you...

Lewis vs Klitschko ~258lbs
Lewis vs Rahman ~ 254lb
Lewis vs Tyson ~ 250lbs
Lewis vs Botha ~ 250lbs
Lewis vs McCall (2) ~ 251lbs
Lewis vs Bruno ~ 230lb
Lewis vs Ruddock ~ 227lbs
Lewis vs Mike Weaver 221lbs

Clear to see by Lewis weight gain and his physique that he was a juicer.. No "transparent agenda" like what you are claiming. But cold hard facts...

Maybe you, Scott, KnockoutNed & Joeyzags should read this article. Written by some of the webs top boxing journalists and writers. Who make claim of Lewis steroid abuse along with the rest of his pitfalls.

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxin...olmesLewis.htm

So a tall fighter with a large frame gradually picked up weight as he got older. Yeah, that's never happened before...

[sonnyboyx2]

So a tall fighter with a large frame gradually picked up weight as he got older. Yeah, that's never happened before...

never happened to the other fighters who measured up to Lewis in size, so i suppose they basically never juiced`

[Scott9945]

never happened to the other fighters who measured up to Lewis in size, so i suppose they basically never juiced`

The adjustments I made to your original list proves otherwise. Most fighters pick up weight as their careers progress.

Personally I believe that Lewis (and all major fighters) used PED's. It's just that the evidence you used is flawed.

[LacedUp]

Lennox Lewis wasn't a really geat fighter until late in hes career. Hes fights with Bruno, Tucker, McCall tells me there is no way he would have beaten Tyson, Bowe or even maybe Holyfield at that point.

Hes victory over Ruddock was great, but Ruddock who went in completely open for a overhand right, wich was Lennox best punch.

Later into the 90s he became much better and could have given Bowe and Tyson a very tough argument.

Both Tyson and Holyfield had tough fights against same level of opposition in that time.

Tells us nothing about how these guys would have fared if they met each other.

[LacedUp]

Once again, just a lot of hot air and falsehoods from you in reply. The article is by several boxing journalists like i mentioned.. Who state clearly they feel Lewis was a "Juicer"... Sad really that you cannot accept someone like Jorgenson making such a claim. i have read many of his articles over the years and rate him highly... I never brought the issue of steroid abuse into this thread. Joeyzagz brought it into the thread... However you Bill you choose what you reply to mate... you make posts then you ignore when i make a reply to you, so once again i will post just for you...

Bill, are you claiming Ruddock was NOT Damaged Goods?

are you claiming Morrison had NOT been exposed by getting KOd in the first round by Michael Bent??

are you claiming Michael Grant was NOT exposed by getting floored 3 times in the opening round by Andrew Golota???

are you claiming Holyfield was NOT past his prime in 1999?

are you claiming John Ruiz who fought in 12 World Title fights was NOT a better challenge than Grant????

are you claiming Chris Byrd who defeated Holyfield & Tua far easier than Lewis did, was not a legitimate No1 challenger for Lewis???

are you claiming Shannon Briggs who was knocked out in less than 3rds by journeyman Darryll Wilson was a Class A fighter???

Bill you are wrong again mate.... i have never ever been owned. the threads you are talking about are discussing wether Lewis avoided Mike Tyson and Rid**** Bowe during the 1990s... my opinion is Lewis ducked them both.. other posters believe Tyson & Bowe ducked Lewis.. but what cannot ever be denied is the facts of Lewis career and the quality of his opponents, which i have pointed out on this here particular thread.

More ridiculous agenda driven rubbish from you.

[billeau2]

Once again, just a lot of hot air and falsehoods from you in reply. The article is by several boxing journalists like i mentioned.. Who state clearly they feel Lewis was a "Juicer"... Sad really that you cannot accept someone like Jorgenson making such a claim. i have read many of his articles over the years and rate him highly... I never brought the issue of steroid abuse into this thread. Joeyzagz brought it into the thread... However you Bill you choose what you reply to mate... you make posts then you ignore when i make a reply to you, so once again i will post just for you...

Bill, are you claiming Ruddock was NOT Damaged Goods?

are you claiming Morrison had NOT been exposed by getting KOd in the first round by Michael Bent??

are you claiming Michael Grant was NOT exposed by getting floored 3 times in the opening round by Andrew Golota???

are you claiming Holyfield was NOT past his prime in 1999?

are you claiming John Ruiz who fought in 12 World Title fights was NOT a better challenge than Grant????

are you claiming Chris Byrd who defeated Holyfield & Tua far easier than Lewis did, was not a legitimate No1 challenger for Lewis???

are you claiming Shannon Briggs who was knocked out in less than 3rds by journeyman Darryll Wilson was a Class A fighter???

Bill you are wrong again mate.... i have never ever been owned. the threads you are talking about are discussing wether Lewis avoided Mike Tyson and Rid**** Bowe during the 1990s... my opinion is Lewis ducked them both.. other posters believe Tyson & Bowe ducked Lewis.. but what cannot ever be denied is the facts of Lewis career and the quality of his opponents, which i have pointed out on this here particular thread.

1) No Sonny....The article is by ONE author who QUOTES other authors in the article at times, it is not by several authors.

2)The author does not state that he subscribes to any steroid use Sonny... he quotes Jorgenson as saying that he thinks Lewis used steriods. Learn to use your critical thinking!

Its not about OWNING you....when you use a source just understand what the source indicates, no owning intended.

The rest of your assertions could be addressed by that piece I gave you, they are opinions. and again, they have been debated endlessly and unless there is something new in the mix....there are to my mind no holy portals, no satanic sacrifices that have allowed Lewis to always have the advantage over his opposition. Like most fighters Lewis fought guys under a variety of circumstances.

It would be like me telling Iron Dan that "Floyd never fought an elite fighter in their prime" well....its true perhaps but does it really mean that floyd never fought prime opposition? or do a lot of fighters deal with fighting at different times in their career under different circumstances....otherwise we have very few victories...Andre Ward didn't beat Dawson, and JOnes didn't beat Toney because Dawson and Toney were weight drained...and on it goes.

You just don't like Hagler or Lewis mate!!

[sonnyboyx2]

1) No Sonny....The article is by ONE author who QUOTES other authors in the article at times, it is not by several authors.

2)The author does not state that he subscribes to any steroid use Sonny... he quotes Jorgenson as saying that he thinks Lewis used steriods. Learn to use your critical thinking!

Its not about OWNING you....when you use a source just understand what the source indicates, no owning intended.

The rest of your assertions could be addressed by that piece I gave you, they are opinions. and again, they have been debated endlessly and unless there is something new in the mix....there are to my mind no holy portals, no satanic sacrifices that have allowed Lewis to always have the advantage over his opposition. Like most fighters Lewis fought guys under a variety of circumstances.

It would be like me telling Iron Dan that "Floyd never fought an elite fighter in their prime" well....its true perhaps but does it really mean that floyd never fought prime opposition? or do a lot of fighters deal with fighting at different times in their career under different circumstances....otherwise we have very few victories...Andre Ward didn't beat Dawson, and JOnes didn't beat Toney because Dawson and Toney were weight drained...and on it goes.

You just don't like Hagler or Lewis mate!!

your wrong again.. i respect both Hagler & Lewis. Your problem is you dont and cannot accept how i express my opinion of both of them in the exact way i express my opinion of every fighter. Unlike yourself and others who hold Hagler & Lewis in such high regard in historical terms, that it borders on foolishness. Whereas i tell it how i seen it unfold, no other way, only how i seen it unfold. But there is a huge difference between me, you, knockedoutned & joeyzags and that difference is, none of you was around during Hagler & Lewis prime career years. whereas i was in my mid-20s when Hagler defeated Alan Minter. mid-30s when Lewis defeated Ruddock. i can hold my head up and make claim that both Hagler & Lewis at the time of both those fights were my favorite boxers on earth. However, as their careers continued and unfolded, i was there following every move they made in the sport. Whereas you guys were most likely not even born, or at best just little boys playing toys. Do not for one single second, think that the internet and youtube can fill the gap which you missed or the advantage i hold over you in terms of "being around at that time".. because it is impossible for anyone so much younger and naive to be able to gather the knowledge which i posses on fighters of the 70s, 80s & 90s fom a video channel and a couple of boxing forums.. Newspapers of the day are were the news is relayed...I have a couple of close friends who are 10 & 12yrs older than myself and i cannot compete with them, when talking boxing and talking Liston, Patterson, Charles, Marciano, Moore etc.. i know what i know about those fighters, but it is minimal compared to those who followed the sport and lived through those fighters prime years...But again you are far too ****** to understand what i am trying to tell you... I watched and wondered at the decisions and choices made by both Hagler & Lewis. I well understand that it is a business and livelyhood which fighters are working at in their careers. But as a hardcore fan, i can and did see them taking "The Easy Route" avoidng the tough fights and challenges. They went down in my estimation because of their decisions. Today on boxing forums, i point out those fighters decision choices taken back in the 80s & 90s.. i am called a liar and lots of other harsh names. Yet all i am doing is telling it how i seen it unfold at the time.... i can remmember Rid**** Bowe offering Lennox Lewis $10 million to fight him in 95 when neither held a world title. That is huge money, it is huge money even today. Tyson Fury will not come away with half that much from his upcomming fight with Wlad Klitschko over 20yrs on... Yet Lewis turned it down saying, "i want to concentrate on regaining my WBC belt"... as Lewis biggest fan, i so wanted him to go and beat up Rid**** Bowe and punch Bowe's manager Rock Newman. But in my head i knew Lewis was afraid....Much of this unfolded on the BBC, live` on TV with the newspapers of the day full of it, yet try to find it on the net and it is difficult work to prove my point...Both Hagler & Lewis are no different to me than any other fighter, i express how i seen it. I could write about Barry McGuigan, Terry Marsh, Kirkland Laing, Don Curry and many other fighters who very very rarely get a mention on this forum, if i told it how i seen it happen at the time of those fighters careers, you would claim "I Hate them" ...

[joeandthebums]

But there is a huge difference between me, you, knockedoutned & joeyzags and that difference is, none of you was around during Hagler & Lewis prime career years.

Why is this particularly significant to you? You often use this in discussions.

Do not for one single second, think that the internet and youtube can fill the gap which you missed or the advantage i hold over you in terms of "being around at that time"..

Because research after the time is not valid? I see the advantage of "being around at that time" as a head start on less noted incidents, otherwise I fail to see the significant advantage you talk of.

because it is impossible for anyone so much younger and naive to be able to gather the knowledge which i posses on fighters of the 70s, 80s & 90s

Why is it impossible? I believe I am "much younger" than yourself, so am I not capable of being more knowledgeable than you on boxers who were active before I became a certain age?

i can remmember Rid**** Bowe offering Lennox Lewis $10 million to fight him in 95 when neither held a world title. Yet Lewis turned it down saying, "i want to concentrate on regaining my WBC belt"...

Several talks occurred between the two teams and many more stories were circulated. Remembering only one does not define it. This is where relying on solely being there, memory, and a lack of supporting information or additional research shows.

Much of this unfolded on the BBC, live` on TV with the newspapers of the day full of it, yet try to find it on the net and it is difficult work to prove my point...

If it exists then it can be found. Two Lewis clippings I picked at random;

[sonnyboyx2]

Why is this particularly significant to you? You often use this in discussions.



Because research after the time is not valid? I see the advantage of "being around at that time" as a head start on less noted incidents, otherwise I fail to see the significant advantage you talk of.



Why is it impossible? I believe I am "much younger" than yourself, so am I not capable of being more knowledgeable than you on boxers who were active before I became a certain age?



Several talks occurred between the two teams and many more stories were circulated. Remembering only one does not define it. This is where relying on solely being there, memory, and a lack of supporting information or additional research shows.



If it exists then it can be found. Two Lewis clippings I picked at random;

let me address your questions:

1/. it is significant because i was there and you were not...like being in a plane crash and surviving to tell the tale. But no one wants to hear because you told them all about the crash first, yet you was not even on the plane.

2/. research after the event is weak if it is printed 20yrs later unlike being printed 20 minutes later.

3/. yes in my opinion it is not impossible, but very unlikely. That is assuming we are talking about 2 similar people who have a fasinating interest in the same subject.. eg: i am a plaster by trade and my 35yr old son also a plaster by trade and has his own business. yet he pales in comparison to myself at the game, due to his young age. yet he has been working in the trade for 20yrs.

4/. again i disagree.. The Bowe offer was a legitimate offer, made live` on the BBC. the whole country awaited Lennox reply with bated antisipation.. Lewis and his manager when interviewed made the excuse on TV "we are not interested in Bowe who has no title, we want to regain the WBC belt".. Lewis then went and fought Lionel Butler, Justin Fortune & Tommy Morrison.. Bowe then fought Herbie Hide, Jorge Louis Gonzalez (Lewis conqueror) & Evander Holyfield..

It is my opinion Lewis stood a fantastic chance of beating Bowe in 1995 much more so than in 93 but i believe Lewis never ever wanted anything to do with Bowe in the pro ranks. just like he never wanted anything to do with Tyson during anytime in the 1990s... Now you can look up reports from the 1990s but the difference is you was not around to witness the goings on.. not around to read newspapers, magazines, see tv interviews with various boxers and managers etc.. those things all add up to the "Total Picture" a person builds up on the matter.

You yourself have claimed many times that i have "An Agenda" which in my opinion is wrong. Yet i feel you have an agenda and your agenda is "Nut Hug ging".. you can deny it, but that wont change my opinion of you.