Great Fighters beaten by a Journeyman when in their prime.

[sonnyboyx2]

Duran lost to Laing 18 months after losing to Ray Leonard No Mas`..He was being lined-up for a multi-million dollar fight with Tony Ayala Jr and fought Kirkland Laing in a tune-up fight. Ayala Jr. had signed to fight Davey Moore for the Super-Welterweight title. Ayala Jr. was convicted of **** and sentenced to 17yrs in prison. Duran replaced Ayala and destroyed Moore in Madison Square Gardens to become a world champion again. With probably the exception of Ken Buchanan, Duran fought superior opposition between 1980-89 Buchanan was a very good lightweight champion, but he was not the level of fighter Leonard or Hagler was. Duran's performances against those two bigger fighters was his prime years. They had to be his prime years, otherwise he would not have been able to compete.

[stephenmc]

Mike mc tigue beating battling siki aka louis fall
And while not a journeyman,but a BIG upset when
Siki beat georges carpentier in france on 23rd of sept 1922

[stephenmc]

Mike mc tigue beating battling siki aka louis fall
And while not a journeyman,but a BIG upset when
Siki beat georges carpentier in france on 23rd of sept 1922

Siki also being the 1st african born world champion

[sonnyboyx2]

I certainly am telling you that you saw the fight wrong. You did see it wrong, cowboy.

You are also more of an idiot than even I thought. Make it official, you really are a halfwit. Your posts have proven it consistently. Juggernuts could match you, but few others could for idiocy. I would be willing to bet your IQ is below 90. I guess 2,000 books have raised to 100 on boxing. That makes you average, pal, at best.

You are a clown. your knowledge of boxing is very limited. when you watch a boxing match you have no idea what you are looking at, you don't understand what boxing is or how a bout is scored. You even claim the officials of Duran vs Hagler are corrupt????... provide me with a link to back-up your claim that corruption was suspected by those judges.

After 12rds the judges had Duran ahead in the fight. Hagler really came on strong over the last 3rds but mainly in the 15th round were he rallied to win the fight. Duran was the first fighter to go the distance with Hagler in a championship fight..

You have not a clue what your watching. your comments above show just what a fool you are.. But i look forward to you supplying the link to prove your claim of corruption.

http://www.boxingnewsonline.net/on-t...roberto-duran/

[rightsideup]

When the Palamino fight happened it was not yet known how Duran would fare among the welters. That is why it was an impressive win for its moment. In retrospect, he had many acheivements to follow that were greater and more heroic. But when they happened his performances against Palamino and Brooks were what we had to go by. I forget who he fought first.

Buchannan is a different case. He was elite.

One of the greatest fighters to ever live happened to come along in his division while he was champ. Duran won their fight with a low blow. He would have won anyway. Kenny did not have enough punch to keep the wild man off him. Buchannan should have received a rematch. It was the only fight he wanted. Like Hagler, he had to quit the game and retreat out of sight. That blemish should accompany Duran's legacy along with no mas.

It was Kenny's fault. He finally put on a good rally in that round and did not want to quit once the bell sounded. Duran was not the kind to stand there and take it. Though he was winning the title at the time, Duran cannot use Buchannan as a showcase. He was still undisciplined and did not win cleanly. Much better would have been to have some class, grant the man's rightful rematch and win it cleanly. Duran never did have much personal class. Kenny was far superior to most of Duran's lightweight defenses. He deserved the rematch, begged for it, but Duran said no mas.

I think Carlos Eleta was calling the shots on who Duran fought and even Ken admitted that he felt Duran who fought Hagler would not be scared of Ken. I do agree that Ken deserved a shot a did get one that he lost around 75 by that time he may have been past his past his peak.

[IronDanHamza]

Salidad really? I believe you but I was under the impression that he recently won a championship and had a reputation as a guy who was better than his record indicated. Then he denied Juan Ma. if Salidad is a 4 time champion then I stand corrected

Regarding Judah, he was a champion and occasionally does get another crack, but its been a long time, since Corrie Spinks i believe, and really since Zoo Judah has become a guy who is a tough opponent who will give maybe 4-5 rounds and then fade. Guys like Garcia etc all had to get by him though. I consider this a gatekeeper in much the same way as some veterans who are still very good, but no longer champion calibre, present a challenge to an up and commer.

Surely Judah can't be a journeyman considering he is a multiple time and multiple weight world Champion and was once in the Top 10 P4P best fighters on the planet.

[billeau2]

Surely Judah can't be a journeyman considering he is a multiple time and multiple weight world Champion and was once in the Top 10 P4P best fighters on the planet.

So a fighter who is in his twilight, never fufilled his potential, and is a tough opponent for many guys coming up, Garcia, Kahn, etc can't be a gatekeeper? if you believe this then we simply have a different notion of what a gatekeeper is, mine is more fluid. I think fighters can take on different roles, you believe that once a guy reaches a certain level he cannot be a gatekeeper. I think with judah the fact that he never really reached his potential might contribute to that role, so yeah I wouldn't designate roy Jones (for example) a gatekeeper because of his past glories, but to me if a guy came up short, obviously will never rectify that history, and has deep flaws that make him beatable by a complete fighter who has the skills and moxy, makes him a potential gatekeeper. This is especially the case in the middle weight divisions where competition is fierce and there a perpetual amount of young hungry fighters looking for validity.

[IronDanHamza]

So a fighter who is in his twilight, never fufilled his potential, and is a tough opponent for many guys coming up, Garcia, Kahn, etc can't be a gatekeeper? if you believe this then we simply have a different notion of what a gatekeeper is, mine is more fluid. I think fighters can take on different roles, you believe that once a guy reaches a certain level he cannot be a gatekeeper. I think with judah the fact that he never really reached his potential might contribute to that role, so yeah I wouldn't designate roy Jones (for example) a gatekeeper because of his past glories, but to me if a guy came up short, obviously will never rectify that history, and has deep flaws that make him beatable by a complete fighter who has the skills and moxy, makes him a potential gatekeeper. This is especially the case in the middle weight divisions where competition is fierce and there a perpetual amount of young hungry fighters looking for validity.

Well yeah, maybe NOW he is while he's shot.

If that's what we're labelling journeymen then most fighters are journeyman.

[BennyST]

So a fighter who is in his twilight, never fufilled his potential, and is a tough opponent for many guys coming up, Garcia, Kahn, etc can't be a gatekeeper? if you believe this then we simply have a different notion of what a gatekeeper is, mine is more fluid. I think fighters can take on different roles, you believe that once a guy reaches a certain level he cannot be a gatekeeper. I think with judah the fact that he never really reached his potential might contribute to that role, so yeah I wouldn't designate roy Jones (for example) a gatekeeper because of his past glories, but to me if a guy came up short, obviously will never rectify that history, and has deep flaws that make him beatable by a complete fighter who has the skills and moxy, makes him a potential gatekeeper. This is especially the case in the middle weight divisions where competition is fierce and there a perpetual amount of young hungry fighters looking for validity.

But every old fighter ends up there. We're talking about fighters at their peak. Otherwise Robinson, Duran, Ali, Leonard, etc etc etc were all journeymen, which is silly of course.

Top champions aren't close to journeymen, even when they end up shot and past their primes. They're just shot, old, past their prime former champions at that stage, not journeymen and gatekeepers.

Erik Morales isn't a journeyman for instance. He's a once great, now shot, former champion.

Toney and Jones, both used for younger fighters to beat on now (the purest definition for gatekeeper), are not gatekeeper/journeymen. Again, they're both shot to **** former greats of the game.

Judah may have come up short of the potential people once expected of him, which was P4P greatness, but he still reached the very highest levels of the sport and was a multiple time, two division, Undisputed world champ. That's not a gatekeeper/journeyman however fluid your definitions might be. It's the exact opposite.

Well yeah, maybe NOW he is while he's shot.

If that's what we're labelling journeymen then most fighters are journeyman.

Exactly.

[billeau2]

Well yeah, maybe NOW he is while he's shot.

If that's what we're labelling journeymen then most fighters are journeyman.

Gatekeeper....and yes if a fighter prolongs his career he often does become a journeyman. Gatekeepers are there because they are experts at exposing fighters who are touted as the next best thing.