Greatest Super-Middle of All Times

[IronDanHamza]

If you're talking head to head I think Froch would lose to a number of fighters at that weight. Including Calzaghe, Jones Jr, Ward who Froch openly admitted he couldn't beat lol but some people still want to make a case for him.


Those factors have to be considered and you can't be called "the best" when your resume is not far superior to the fighter that clearly beat you.


Losses count. And losing to both Ward and Kessler means something.

Who would rate higher Junior Jones or Barrera?

Jones beat him twice.

I understand the gap between Jones and Barrera is a lot wider but my point is just because you beat a guy doesn't necessarily mean you're ranked ahead of them.

There are a lot of fighters throughout history who beat a fighter that are ranked beneath them. Styles make fights, we've all heard that before.

Tiger Jones dominated Sugar Ray Robinson. Dominated.

[Scott9945]

Not really an excuse though is it?

Their resumes are comparable that's at the absolute very least.

Is that because Ward has done nothing in the also 3 years? Yes. No two ways about it that is why. It gave Froch 3 years to do work while Ward stayed still.

But as of right now that's simply the case.

I really don't see the point in continuing this debate because the chances of Ward putting it to bed now he's out of his contract are very high as long as he doesn't move up which he says he doesn't.

That's a good perspective. I don't remember anyone in this thread implying that Froch is a superior fighter to Ward. In two years this topic will likely be moot.

[Ray Corso]

Which Robinson??? Yes Tiger did well but Robinson had just come off a 2+ year retirement with Tiger being his second fight back. After a few more he won the Middleweight Title past his very best but Robinson was and is the TBE and winning that title after a 2+ year retirement pretty much proves it.
Losses count more when your a great fighter fighting another great fighter.
If one is beyond his prime it's not as meaningful yet it counts.

I give a fellow like Froch a lot of credit for his spirit because he is very limited in the skills department. He is a willing opponent and as far as I know will fight hard. He and Ward both belong in the Light Heavy division but I guess they feel "safer" in a junior division.
Ray

[BattlingNelson]

Who would rate higher Junior Jones or Barrera?

Jones beat him twice.

I understand the gap between Jones and Barrera is a lot wider but my point is just because you beat a guy doesn't necessarily mean you're ranked ahead of them.

There are a lot of fighters throughout history who beat a fighter that are ranked beneath them. Styles make fights, we've all heard that before.

Tiger Jones dominated Sugar Ray Robinson. Dominated.

And Pep over Saddler.

[New England]

Not really an excuse though is it?

Their resumes are comparable that's at the absolute very least.

Is that because Ward has done nothing in the also 3 years? Yes. No two ways about it that is why. It gave Froch 3 years to do work while Ward stayed still.

But as of right now that's simply the case.

I really don't see the point in continuing this debate because the chances of Ward putting it to bed now he's out of his contract are very high as long as he doesn't move up which he says he doesn't.

andre ward could retire, and he would be known as the best fighter of the era at the weight, and the more accomplished and able fighter.


no historian is going to look back and say that froch was a greater fighter than andre ward.

why would they? nobody has really answered that. ward being inactive isn't an answer. you need to demonstrate that froch is the more accomplished fighter over the course of his career, not that he was more active.

[New England]

And Pep over Saddler.

i though the barrera comparison was too much, but this really takes the cake

[IronDanHamza]

andre ward could retire, and he would be known as the best fighter of the era at the weight, and the more accomplished and able fighter.


no historian is going to look back and say that froch was a greater fighter than andre ward.

why would they? nobody has really answered that. ward being inactive isn't an answer. you need to demonstrate that froch is the more accomplished fighter over the course of his career, not that he was more active.

It's not just being active though.

It's allowed Froch to do good work while Ward has stood still.

[IronDanHamza]

i though the barrera comparison was too much, but this really takes the cake

Why does that take the cake?

Pep did lose to Saddler 3 out of 4 times but most people rate Pep higher than Saddler at Featherweight and in general.

Just because Ward beat Froch doesn't necessarily mean he'll be ranked higher there are so many examples to support that.

[IronDanHamza]

Which Robinson??? Yes Tiger did well but Robinson had just come off a 2+ year retirement with Tiger being his second fight back. After a few more he won the Middleweight Title past his very best but Robinson was and is the TBE and winning that title after a 2+ year retirement pretty much proves it.
Losses count more when your a great fighter fighting another great fighter.
If one is beyond his prime it's not as meaningful yet it counts.

I give a fellow like Froch a lot of credit for his spirit because he is very limited in the skills department. He is a willing opponent and as far as I know will fight hard. He and Ward both belong in the Light Heavy division but I guess they feel "safer" in a junior division.
Ray

What's your point?

He still beat him and by all accounts beat him clearly.

[joseph5620]

Who would rate higher Junior Jones or Barrera?

Jones beat him twice.

I understand the gap between Jones and Barrera is a lot wider but my point is just because you beat a guy doesn't necessarily mean you're ranked ahead of them.

There are a lot of fighters throughout history who beat a fighter that are ranked beneath them. Styles make fights, we've all heard that before.

Tiger Jones dominated Sugar Ray Robinson. Dominated.

I wouldn't compare junior Jones to Ward because it's obvious Ward is a better fighter and hasn't been knocked out numerous times like Junior Jones has. Other than Barrera, Jones doesn't have a lot. Not so with Ward. Certainly nothing like Hamed or Morales.

Besides that, I dont think Froch and Ward's resumes are so far apart to justify Froch surpassing him all time.