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You guys are all deluded...the first 500 pound heavy seals the deal. They got practically a 400 pound chinerman right now...rumor has it he had to eat two other chinermen to get that weight. Anyhow its no thang, just make a championship fight 8 rounds so they don't get winded, and make the ropes elastic so they can bounce off em instead of heaving off of the ropes cause that takes a lot of energy.
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Dempsey and Marciano were WHAT WAS THEN defined as a Heavyweight.
They were definitely NOT Heavyweights as we would define them today.
They would be light Heavyweights because they probably would not be able to make the CW limit and be competitive.
Today's CW's are so lean and so fit and undergo an artificial dehydration and starvation that when bulked up they are well over the HW limit.
Dempsey and Marciano were natural light heavies.Comment
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They could have come in heavier if they wanted. But instead they chose to come in lighter because they considered that to be a better fighting weight.Comment
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Good points. I say start with 10 rounds and see if they can last that first haha.Originally posted by billeau2 View PostComment
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And there he is hehe. You called it, Ziggy.Comment
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a faster punch does more damage than a heavier slow punch.
A faster chin rolls better than a heavier slow chin.
the only real weakness is when your opponent counters your bodys momentum.
like you've got the heavy slow punch of foreman vs the bobing fraizer, so foreman has 2 options, he can hit frazier so hard with a right, fraziers whole body moves to frazier's right, then forman can throw a left to counter the forced momentum of fraziers body driving foremans slow punch into frazier. then the second option is to pick up on fraziers rhythm, as fraizer slips to his left, forman can throw a right countering the momentum of fraziers bobbing driving his slow punch into fraizer.
comparatively ali takes some very hard body punches, but rolls off most of the slow punches from foreman.
though this isn't so much a case of a lighter opponent vs a heavier one but rather in foreman vs ali a slow puncher vs one of the best people at rolling punches and in fraizer vs foreman a slow puncher using the opportunity to counter into the momentum of his opponets body to do devastating damage.
both these aspects and lighter vs heavier are all clearly evident in conn vs Louis. Louis one of the hardest p4p punchers, had incredible speed to his punches, but conn at several pounds lighter had even more speed, rolling with the punches of Louis with little problem, taking viscious uppercuts seemingly unphased just momens before KO. then there is the KO, Louis lands a left, conn's head is sent to conn's left, part in effort to roll the punch, part due to the force of the punch. Louis throws a right as conn is still trying to roll the left hook he just received, the right lands countering the momentum of conns head, and conn drops.
so, being lighter and faster allows you the inherent ability to roll punches better than some one of the same skill level but at a heavier weight.
on the other side of things is the lighter faster person that can roll punches incredibly well, how do you connect with your punches? well you can counter their momentum as described above for foreman, or you can punch fast enough that they cant roll out of the way in time. A lighter slimmed down body with few unnecessary muscles other than what you have sculpted through years of training is your best chance of this.
take this a step further, and you have the faster you punch, the more you connect with your opponent. the more solid and longer you connect with your opponent, in most cases the more damage you do. so if your doing good damage to some one who can roll their head out of the way with the best of them, the damage your going to do to some one like Jess Willard, whos head movements are achingly slow, is many many many times more than what you could do at a comparable weight punching just as slowly as Willard. (the bigger they are the harder they fall)
you do more damage at a slightly lighter weight, you roll punches better at a slightly lighter weight, and you are many many times more susceptible to being knocked out by punches that counter your bodys momentum at a slightly lighter weight. (you can run but you cant hide)
I think of it as a sheet of paper hanging from a string, a thin light sheet of paper is much harder to connect solidly with than a heavier piece of cardboard. while also the faster you punch the easier it is to connect with the thin light sheet of paper.Last edited by Spartacus Sully; 09-19-2014, 12:34 AM.Comment
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Yeah a lot of people have an over emphasis on weight division now a days. A lot of the older fights are much more exciting because of the lack of this and they had rather big weight differences. As far as I'm concerned a heavy weight is a heavy weight, starting at around 190.
Things should be more about skill than technicalities. Thats why a lot of recent fights have been a bore, these big guys are just concerned with weight and points rather than putting on a true fight.
Dempsey and Joe beat men much bigger then them. I believe Dempsey said he was 185 when he initially fought Willard, who happened to be 240+.Comment
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Look I am not really obsessed with weight as much as some would like to claim.
But a big weight difference is a big issue!
The notion that anybody 190+ or even 200+ lbs fights on an equal footing with someone at a similar level of far heftier weight as is the case today is flat out ridiculous. None of you REALLY believe that. You might point to a few examples where a smaller man beat a larger man of such significant difference, but those cases are far fewer than those where the larger one prevailed and usually involved the larger one being much less skilled etc. This is particularly relevant for Dempsey and Marciano as none of them ever really defeated a modern sized HW who was any good by comparison.
As for Dempsey and Marciano coming in heavier if they'd wanted too, sure, of course. They could have ate more. They could have trained to maximize muscle weight. It's true what the man said above.
Except the basic size of Dempsey and Marciano is far less than what we see even in the CW division today. These guys walk around at 210 similarly lean as Dempsey and Rocky were, then STRIP the hell out of themselves to make weight (which Dempsey and Marciano never had too at "HW").
Could you imagine Dempsey or Marciano coming in at 210lbs? The problem is is that their frames are not really designed for that kind of weight, especially 220! Not with their styles, they would be "bull like sluggers" of much reduced speed and get caught flush regularly with bombs harder than anything they ever could have imagined which is unacceptable these days.
I respect MArciano in particular and acknowledge the achievements of Dempsey too but we HAVE to look at it with realism. What the definition of a HW is today, is different from what it was then!
Many years ago, a HW was defined as 160lbs+. Are we going to consider them HW's today as well? OF course not!
Many guys like to throw around "There's nothing special about 200lbs" as a come back and then "Anybody of 190-200lbs can knock out any sized man" as well. That's kind of contradictory don't you think?
It's all relative obviously. You can LOOK at Dempsey and Marciano and SEE, without any further argument that they are NOT HW's as we would describe them today.
Just think about it.Comment
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Elroy, you slipping, you've been weak in this threadComment
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No I don't think so. I'm just layin out an opinion and what I consider the obvious truth. Nothing further is really required.Originally posted by soul_survivor View Post
You'll either swallow it, or not
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