AMAZING! James Corbett and Gene Tunney demonstrating tactics.

[Mikhnienko]

On the Lee heavy bag video it looks much more like Wing Chun than Western Boxing he's finding the center line then chain punching the technique itself resembles Wing Chun punches too.

[New England]

are you dopey enough to have actually been expecting him bobbing and weaving like tyson and throwing "boxing" type punches?

god forbid that he's able to get out of the way when somebody tries to hit him back, or that his balance would be good enough for a stiff wind to be unable to knock him over.

bruce lee fanboys claim that he was a talented boxer in the amateurs.


i love when people get mad about bruce lee. dude was an actor and a snake oil salesman. he used his athletic ability to con people. go watch his "one inch punch" demonstration and tell me that his assistant isn't literally jumping backward. "one inch punch?" you guys really think that's anything but snake oil?

this section has really slipped in the past few years

[New England]

On the Lee heavy bag video it looks much more like Wing Chun than Western Boxing he's finding the center line then chain punching the technique itself resembles Wing Chun punches too.

looks more like an athletic nine year old flailing.

[billeau2]

god forbid that he's able to get out of the way when somebody tries to hit him back, or that his balance would be good enough for a stiff wind to be unable to knock him over.

bruce lee fanboys claim that he was a talented boxer in the amateurs.


i love when people get mad about bruce lee. dude was an actor and a snake oil salesman. he used his athletic ability to con people. go watch his "one inch punch" demonstration and tell me that his assistant isn't literally jumping backward. "one inch punch?" you guys really think that's anything but snake oil?

this section has really slipped in the past few years

You keep putting your foot farther and farther up your ass....You have now resorted to repeating the same quiet crap in the hope that it will somehow sound better? the next time? how is that working for you?

You keep losing credability because its been pretty much established that your comments were made out of ignorance. You obviously do not know anything about the martial arts, please don't even talk about the one inch punch.

[jack p]

[QUOTE=New England;14791210]this thread is about one "demonstration," and they look like absolute garbage. you teach better technique to a 10 year old.



Actually everything known about boxing technique has been known easily by the 20s and i will tell you why
The ten year old kid you say is taught better technique then these old timers had..???Who taught it to the ten year old..??
Someone in their 20s 0r 30s born in the 80"s..Well that guy who taught it to the ten year old..Who taught him the techniques he taught
the ten year old??..Somebody who was born in the 60's..Well who taught him ??
Someone who was born in the 40s..Joe louis fought the 40s ..Who taught Louis?? Blackburn did he was born in before 1900..
Who taught Blackburn??? If Blackburn who taught Louis his great technique was born so long ago..How could he teach Louis techniques
that weren't invented....I heard "Look how their holding their chin up thats the wrong way..The chin should be tucked down...
You think people back then didn"t know the easiest way for a knockout was go for the chin?? These quys aren't sparring !!
They are playing around....Nothing new has been invented.. ..More has been forgotten....Kids today aren't taught how to punch properly..
Its been mostly forgotten..They don't know about powerlines..Thats why theres so many weak hitters..
The reason Corbett turned his fist that way was he was trained for a three knuckle landing ..You look at films of Joe
Louis and say.."Look how much he knows compared to fighters in the 1900-1920"...
How is that possible if the one showed him these things ..Blackburn learned them when he was taught back in the early 1900s??
He looks more evolved cause the technology used to capture that moment is improved...They know about nutrition more because of scientists..
But scientist know nothing about boxing..That knowledge punching blocking feinting slipping punches is all hand me down
Look how many great boxers Battling Nelson knocked out..Simply because after getting his ass kicked for 15 rounds he wore them down
knocked them out in the 20th -25th round..Sure many fighters like Nelson didn't worry about technique other then the ability to
be able to take it and have enough time to eventually get a knockout even if they took 7 punches to 1 Conditions make great fighters..Actually i thought i saw way more multiple techniques than in todays fighters arsenal
used by Corbett..Especially those feints he used he's showing even at 60 he's maintained his health and mind

[billeau2]

[QUOTE=jack p;14818986]

this thread is about one "demonstration," and they look like absolute garbage. you teach better technique to a 10 year old.



Actually everything known about boxing technique has been known easily by the 20s and i will tell you why
The ten year old kid you say is taught better technique then these old timers had..???Who taught it to the ten year old..??
Someone in their 20s 0r 30s born in the 80"s..Well that guy who taught it to the ten year old..Who taught him the techniques he taught
the ten year old??..Somebody who was born in the 60's..Well who taught him ??
Someone who was born in the 40s..Joe louis fought the 40s ..Who taught Louis?? Blackburn did he was born in before 1900..
Who taught Blackburn??? If Blackburn who taught Louis his great technique was born so long ago..How could he teach Louis techniques
that weren't invented....I heard "Look how their holding their chin up thats the wrong way..The chin should be tucked down...
You think people back then didn"t know the easiest way for a knockout was go for the chin?? These quys aren't sparring !!
They are playing around....Nothing new has been invented.. ..More has been forgotten....Kids today aren't taught how to punch properly..
Its been mostly forgotten..They don't know about powerlines..Thats why theres so many weak hitters..
The reason Corbett turned his fist that way was he was trained for a three knuckle landing ..You look at films of Joe
Louis and say.."Look how much he knows compared to fighters in the 1900-1920"...
How is that possible if the one showed him these things ..Blackburn learned them when he was taught back in the early 1900s??
He looks more evolved cause the technology used to capture that moment is improved...They know about nutrition more because of scientists..
But scientist know nothing about boxing..That knowledge punching blocking feinting slipping punches is all hand me down
Look how many great boxers Battling Nelson knocked out..Simply because after getting his ass kicked for 15 rounds he wore them down
knocked them out in the 20th -25th round..Sure many fighters like Nelson didn't worry about technique other then the ability to
be able to take it and have enough time to eventually get a knockout even if they took 7 punches to 1 Conditions make great fighters..Actually i thought i saw way more multiple techniques than in todays fighters arsenal
used by Corbett..Especially those feints he used he's showing even at 60 he's maintained his health and mind

Hey stop making sense! Someone might learn something here!

[LoadedWraps]

i can assure you that my understanding isn't limited. i know a lot about boxing. you can ask around, or take my word for it.


you're trying to tell me that those two are displaying technique on the level of a modern technician [mayweather, whitaker, etc?]

you don't think they look crude by comparison?

a 10 year old will be taught a much more technical version of the jab, the uppercut, etc. if he's talented, he'll be a much more technical fighter than those two by the time he is 20.
some of those demonstrations are downright laughable.


if that's what you think, that this video displays high level technique outside of the context of the 1920's, it's you who lacks the understanding of the game.

The 40's-60's had the most depth in talent, and the technique that is used today has been around since then, if you really know the sport well you would know that unlike pretty much every other sport in the world, boxing is regressing as far as talent depth and schools of thought and expertise. Fighters fight less often, against worse opposition, and though modern medicine and nutritional knowledge has come leaps and bounds since the golden era of boxing, anyone who suggests athletes today in boxing are a level above athletes back then in terms of conditioning and agility, are sorely mistaken.

A 10 year old having better technique than Tunney? I find that quite ridiculous, maybe a kid phenom, I know pros that are ranked top 10 in their division and have awful technique with certain punches or actions so even if it were true, it doesn't mean much if you try to apply it to the greater population.

Funny how the "heart" hasn't grown with all this size differences. Maybe that's why non of these modern fighters fight hard through their 12 round bouts. Afraid of tiring? With all the "modern" training techniques these days how come no one is TIRED at the end of a fight?

Size of the fight IN the dog is what counts not just the size of the dog.

You better have your big man small man techniques in order!

Marciano 5'11" 191lbs I know, I met the man shook his hand and I personally know 3 men who fought him. To all of you he is on old film at horrible shutter speed and a picture in the boxing history book.

You learn about someone when you meet them in person. Especially in boxing!

Ray

I can't stand it when someone doesn't recognize Marciano for the greatness that he was. When people fail to acknowledge his high ring IQ and defensive prowess I just have to ignore them and move on, I can't deal with that level of ignorance.

Don't you think that's the definition of evolution? I agree with Toney, but take the shoulder roll for example, it's changed a lot. It's evolved and the way Mayweather uses it, it's not the way it was classically shown.

That's not eveolution, that's just another fighter using his own variation or ding it his own way, evolution would be if all the hilly shell variations melted into one and everyone used only that variation from there on out. And that would never happen because even if you try and replicate someones style perfectly you are going to have your own version of if whether it's due to differences in physique, speed, fighting style, ring IQ, etc.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

That's not eveolution, that's just another fighter using his own variation or ding it his own way, evolution would be if all the hilly shell variations melted into one and everyone used only that variation from there on out. And that would never happen because even if you try and replicate someones style perfectly you are going to have your own version of if whether it's due to differences in physique, speed, fighting style, ring IQ, etc.

That is absolutely evolution.

Evolution is the change that happens over time, from an original concept. Like I said, I train with a coach who trained under George Benton, he even tells me that the shoulder roll that Mayweather uses, is not the same way he was taught in the classic philly way.

He said that Bernard Hopkins is a better example of that. I think why you guys get offended is because you think that we are disrespecting the old time fighters and that's simply not true.

I just think it's absurd (with all due respect) to think that a sport as old as boxing, has not evolved over 100 years of existence, when it obviously has. The techniques, the nutrition, training methods and even apparatus has changed dramatically over time.

I have trained in many gyms, been around the country and in many different parts of the world and I have had this conversation before with some of the best trainers in boxing. I can tell you that they all agree that boxing has most definitely evolved and changed.

I mean, if it didn't, that would be embarrassing for a sport so fluid and effective as boxing. It's not an ancient form of Karate, or Kung Fu that is stuck in it's culture and traditions, it's a modern martial art that consists of fluid, quick strikes with the fists from the waist up. It's limited in it's attack, but has a history of many different variations because of the different schools of boxing around the world.

Listen to Nacho Bernstein talk about Arturo Cullo Hernandez and the influence he had in Mexico. He learned from the Cuban greats and then developed his OWN style in Mexico which you can see today. All of Nacho's fighters carry that style which is very distinctive. Lead hand high, constant head movement and very disciplined and defined punches with emphasis on technicality.

That wasn't seen 50 years ago, it was studied, built upon and then created by Cullo Hernandez, and passed on to Nacho to make scores or world champions from Mexico City alone.

Take Ali and how he moved, there were old time trainers that said he fought like a coward because he didn't stand and trade the way the old timers did. Yet it was Ali who revolutionized the way a HW can fight, with movement and fluidity. His athleticism changed the game, and since athletes are getting bigger, stronger, faster and more agile, you can see this now.

Marciano was 188lbs and 5'10" and was HW champ, now we have monsters that are 6'7", 250 lbs in the HW division. That in itself is evolution of the human physique.

Boxing evolves my friend, everything does and that's not a knock or disrespect to the old time fighters. If anything it's an homage to them because we learned from them and built on top of that.

[billeau2]

That is absolutely evolution.

Evolution is the change that happens over time, from an original concept. Like I said, I train with a coach who trained under George Benton, he even tells me that the shoulder roll that Mayweather uses, is not the same way he was taught in the classic philly way.

He said that Bernard Hopkins is a better example of that. I think why you guys get offended is because you think that we are disrespecting the old time fighters and that's simply not true.

I just think it's absurd (with all due respect) to think that a sport as old as boxing, has not evolved over 100 years of existence, when it obviously has. The techniques, the nutrition, training methods and even apparatus has changed dramatically over time.

I have trained in many gyms, been around the country and in many different parts of the world and I have had this conversation before with some of the best trainers in boxing. I can tell you that they all agree that boxing has most definitely evolved and changed.

I mean, if it didn't, that would be embarrassing for a sport so fluid and effective as boxing. It's not an ancient form of Karate, or Kung Fu that is stuck in it's culture and traditions, it's a modern martial art that consists of fluid, quick strikes with the fists from the waist up. It's limited in it's attack, but has a history of many different variations because of the different schools of boxing around the world.

Listen to Nacho Bernstein talk about Arturo Cullo Hernandez and the influence he had in Mexico. He learned from the Cuban greats and then developed his OWN style in Mexico which you can see today. All of Nacho's fighters carry that style which is very distinctive. Lead hand high, constant head movement and very disciplined and defined punches with emphasis on technicality.

That wasn't seen 50 years ago, it was studied, built upon and then created by Cullo Hernandez, and passed on to Nacho to make scores or world champions from Mexico City alone.

Take Ali and how he moved, there were old time trainers that said he fought like a coward because he didn't stand and trade the way the old timers did. Yet it was Ali who revolutionized the way a HW can fight, with movement and fluidity. His athleticism changed the game, and since athletes are getting bigger, stronger, faster and more agile, you can see this now.

Marciano was 188lbs and 5'10" and was HW champ, now we have monsters that are 6'7", 250 lbs in the HW division. That in itself is evolution of the human physique.

Boxing evolves my friend, everything does and that's not a knock or disrespect to the old time fighters. If anything it's an homage to them because we learned from them and built on top of that.

Unfortunately the reason why there is a dilemna is not a simple understanding like the one you present. Your post is excellent but....some issues have a certain complexity to them and boxing is one of those situations. The reason for this that I can see is that boxing is a hybrid, it is part sport and part combat. Sports do evolve for a number of reasons: Technology, i.e. a baseball glove today compared to a glove in the 1920's, socal factors, football players today are not college kids playing a club sport, they are athletes where big financial interests are represented....Put another way, going to a ball game today cost a lot more because there is a lot more financial impetus in sports, and this is reflected by (and this is important) The amount of time, money, education put into sports development....Heck when I was a kid (I am 50) most major league players came from California because they could play ball all year round. Now a days? ball players are scouted, developed and took in from all over the world...OF COURSE BASEBALL (and other sports) will get better!!

Boxing is not wholly a sport. A lot of people feel that other sports have taken the brunt of talent away from boxing. Also figting which is part of boxing has been developed over the life of our species. In fact, body mechanics, combat efficiency, etc are not well represented in most modern sport endevours. lets use baseball for an example: The pure refexes of a Rod Carew, or Ted Williams, have been replaced by the speed, muscle memory and fitness training of hitters like Bobby Bonds. While sports have gotten better, body mechanics have taken a back seat to fitness. In fighting body mechanics are very important and are as much a part of progress as physical conditioning.

Boxing has become limited. It has become an emphasis on fighting from a high guard, limited footwork, with an attempt to KO the opponent. WE no longer even usually see body punching, strategy involving traps and feints, etc. Some fighters do still use these skills and these fighters usually dominate. Ward, Hopkins, Mayweather (to a degree), Toney. A fat James Toney held the entire Heavyweight division captive by simply using skills that are considered old school...for example.

The trainers you see and speak to are in the present moment. Of course they see progress as well they should, but they cannot view progress objectively. Boxing is becoming more of a sport but this has meant that the emphasis on footwork, feints, traps, body punching, etc are all being neclected. The proof of this is in not so much in what we see but what we do not see....again think of the lack of all the skills that are no longer part of a fighter's skill set.

Other things also become apparent. The lack of activity is a problem with modern fighters. 12 rounds and a lot if these guys have stamina issues. Madianna, a decent pressure fighter, has to do all kinds of things to go twelve rounds? Most pressure fighters had to be able to go for 15 rounds, this is just an example.

At the end of the day boxing has characteristics of both: a sport and part of our genetic make up. Ironickly if you watch primates fight, with big overhand strikes, and look at how our bodies develop, with our forehead protruding, as compared to our exposed chin, our exposed groin, our plexus....we have obviously been designed, to resist an attack from the top... This tells us that how we were designed to fight and the many strategies and styles that have developed, often become more socially relevant than combat relevant. In the case of boxing when you are fighting a man for 25 rounds, with smaller gloves, you have to know more things to do and how to defend against these things because there are rules but you are still essentially fighting. In 12 rounds, with the smaller rounds, the bigger gloves, the limited amount of skills employed, yes boxing will change to accomidate these rules, becoming more a sport, losing many aspects that were initially employed, etc. But this does not make better fighters!

Again, Football is a sport and today with the rules, with the talent influx and with the brain power (coaching and quarterbacking primarily) we can definitely say that a superbowl champ from last year would destroy the 1968 Green Bay Packers! (unless you are terry bradshaw inside joke!). The sport has changed to accomidate the rules, expectations etc. I love Kenny Stabler. he was slick as oil and mean as a hungry alley cat, but I harber no illusions....Stabler never had the IQ, the training, the coaching, or the evolution of the sport that Peyton maning has been exposed to.

BUt Boxing is not wholly a sport and the talent, sophisitication of the enterprise, etc have all negatively been affected in boxing....Thats just the truth and who says so? Most guys who have lived through a few epoches of boxing say so.

[Cyberspace]

Not sure evolution works that way. Not over three generations either.