AMAZING! James Corbett and Gene Tunney demonstrating tactics.

[billeau2]

The sad thing is you actually believe all this. Boxing supposedly evolving is true in some instances but acting like everything was retained, expanded upon, and improved is laughable. As for your statement that there are few if any great defensive boxer before Locche, in the words of Golovkin, are you serious right now?

Corbett III
B.Leonard
Gibbons bros
Conn
Loughran
Tunney
Canzoneri
Kid Chocolate
Midget Wolgast
Panama Al Brown
Burley
Gavilan
Charles
Walcott
Moore
Graham
Benton
H.Johnson
Pastrano
LMR
Benton

How long you want me to go for? Toney and Hopkins praise guys like Charles, Walcott and Moore but Hopkins isn't on their level as much as he may wish he was in my opinion.

His offense is nowhere near as potent or threatening and that is mainly because he is far more dependent on distance to implement his defense once inside the pocket the quality of his defense suffers greatly. **** you could argue he shares as many defensive similarities to Wladimir Klitschko as he does the other guys. Yes i just said that now deal with it.

The Great Pernell Whitaker's defense improved considerably thanks to George Benton who got him to stop running around as much, relying on distance less and it also put him in the position to counter and land punches without having to move back into range since he never left making his offense more potent. What do you know he also trained McCallum and Holyfield.

Duran's improved along with the rest of his game and became exceptional thanks to the old school pre-WWII knowledge and tutelage of Arcel and Brown. One of the most significant differences between pre-1970's and today regarding defense is aggressive fighters actually possessing it.

There is a tendency to not understand the guild structure and fighting techniques....I see the same thing with the brazilian Ju Jutsu crowd. Everything done in BJJ is in Judo, as a matter of fact the setups are more complex in Judo compared to defaulting to two basic fighting positions in BJJ. Yet many people think BJJ is a new highly evolved form of fighting.

in boxing people reduce the sport to less rounds, bigger gloves, to squaring up and trying to knock the other guys block off as the only real strategy and suddenly boxing has evolved!

People don't seem to understand that some things are a guild and take many moons to evolve, change for the better. So people try to explain from a technical point of view, where concrete examples are given and its still not enough! hings like why pronation changes when a jab is introduced...that it is not because modern fighers ingeniously discovered turning the palm helps the jab!

I try to explain to students in the martial arts that the Japanese Sword and the movements associated with it are based on two people trying to kill each other, with other people ready to jump in at any time....and that these two people have blade weapons of various lengths, two hands and two feet, no refs, and that these people recorded what worked and what didn't so there family would survive and pass the knowledge on....and these people tell me but sensei its not real combat unless you are wrestling around a ring with a ref, gloves and a fan base!

Yes its true the older fighters were all Irishmen of low IQ who figured that the way to win was to take blows and deliver other blows with bad form....luckily these neanderthals were saved by modern fighters who were so much better that the average ten year old could teach Corbett a lesson!

My point is people can and should point out the problems with this way of thinking, and its a long road to hoe

[Mikhnienko]

People don't seem to understand that some things are a guild and take many moons to evolve, change for the better. So people try to explain from a technical point of view, where concrete examples are given and its still not enough! hings like why pronation changes when a jab is introduced...that it is not because modern fighers ingeniously discovered turning the palm helps the jab!

Guys used to throw the jab as a lead straight with a fall step and it was a power punch. Nobody uses fall steps today it fell out of favor and isn't taught but that doesn't mean it lost it's effectiveness. I think a large contributing factor is the modern jab is alot more fool proof than the coordination, technique and timing required to land a powerful jab with a fall step or Jolt as Dempsey called it to differentiate between the two.

Many modern fighters especially boxers and counter punchers use the more "evolved" modern jab while backhanding their opponent without even closing their fist. I can land a more powerful blow by slapping my girl in her face with my ****. "Wow look how quickly he just threw 4 jabs" without a single one landing and none of them capable of breaking a g****.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

[QUOTE]

The sad thing is you actually believe all this. Boxing supposedly evolving is true in some instances but acting like everything was retained, expanded upon, and improved is laughable. As for your statement that there are few if any great defensive boxer before Locche, in the words of Golovkin, are you serious right now?

Once again, I attempt to have a decent conversation about boxing and it's extremism all over again. If you read my original post, I gave respect to the old time fighters and didn't make any absolute statements about defense in the old days. What I did say is that boxing has changed and the defensive fighters have gotten better which I stand by that.

Corbett III
B.Leonard
Gibbons bros
Conn
Loughran
Tunney
Canzoneri
Kid Chocolate
Midget Wolgast
Panama Al Brown
Burley
Gavilan
Charles
Walcott
Moore
Graham
Benton
H.Johnson
Pastrano
LMR
Benton

For everyone you can name in the old days, I can name 2 in the "modern era". Again, not saying there weren't great defensive fighters in the old days, it's just that boxing did change in the modern era and for the better. Techniques changed drastically, and I will go over some in a second.

How long you want me to go for? Toney and Hopkins praise guys like Charles, Walcott and Moore but Hopkins isn't on their level as much as he may wish he was in my opinion.

His offense is nowhere near as potent or threatening and that is mainly because he is far more dependent on distance to implement his defense once inside the pocket the quality of his defense suffers greatly. **** you could argue he shares as many defensive similarities to Wladimir Klitschko as he does the other guys. Yes i just said that now deal with it.

Well I disagree and Hopkins fighting at 50 is a testament to that. Hopkins IMO is the greatest MW of all time, yes I said that now deal with it.

The Great Pernell Whitaker's defense improved considerably thanks to George Benton who got him to stop running around as much, relying on distance less and it also put him in the position to counter and land punches without having to move back into range since he never left making his offense more potent. What do you know he also trained McCallum and Holyfield.

Duran's improved along with the rest of his game and became exceptional thanks to the old school pre-WWII knowledge and tutelage of Arcel and Brown. One of the most significant differences between pre-1970's and today regarding defense is aggressive fighters actually possessing it.

Wait, you kind of made my point for me. Both Whitaker and Duran expanded on what the old timers taught them. I don't know if you know this, but I train under a trainer who was taught by George Benton, who grew up in N Philly...just so you know.

Lets take a look at two techniques that have drastically changed and I can name quite a few. In the old days, you were taught to parry with the same hand on the same side as your opponent, that changed because of defense.

You were also taught to block a body shot with your hand in the old days, that also changed to defend with elbows because of the way you can change it to a head shot.

These are two of many different stances, hand positions, movements, parry's and catches that have changed and evolved in boxing through the decades. To say that boxing hasn't changed is amazing to me, just look at the old videos of guys in the 10's - 40's and how much basic boxing technique has changed.

Again, I will repeat myself, the old timers had great fighters both offensive and defensive. I just was making the point that boxing has changed, that is obvious and yes I think the technique has changed for the better.

[Banderivets]

I give all the respect in the world to the old timers because without them we would not have what we have today.

They were an important step in the evolution of the sport and the helped build the sport that we love and enjoy.

But I am sorry they are just crude. There is no amount of vintage footage that will make me think otherwise.

Just as the equipment that the Soviets used to fly into space is considered crude today, so is the technique of the past. It's crude, there is no way around that fact. Forget this video, the shutter speeds, the fact that its a demonstration...look at hundreds of other videos from the era.

Sports evolve, the athlete evolves, they get stronger, faster, smarter.

I agree that boxing really took a leap in the 60s. Prior to that, it was simply not on the level of what we are used to.

You would not consider those guys professionals by today's standards.
Take someone like Lara, JMM or Klitschko look at their year as a professional and look at Gene Tunney. Look at the life that they lead, how they prepare for the fights and how they live their life outside of the ring.

It's like motorsports. I'm sorry but the days of Fangio and modern F1 are not even night and day...we are talking about different planets here.


This doesn't mean that you can't love the era or appreciate it. But to think that if you could time machine these guys over into the modern era and have them put up a proper fight against this days top fighters is lying to yourself. Maybe they would survive on toughness alone, or score a home run with a lucky punch but that's where we draw the line.


What the old timers did have, was guts and lots of them and I do not believe we will ever get fighters that are as "tough" as the old timers. In this day and age I feel like it is impossible to produce a man with as much cojones as the guys from pre WWII period. We just do not have an environment like that anymore. And sorry the ******s of America or Eastern Europe or the barrios of Latin America don't count. It was a different time back then, different life.

Anyway that's just my opinion. Agree, disagree whatever.

[Scott9945]

I give all the respect in the world to the old timers because without them we would not have what we have today.

They were an important step in the evolution of the sport and the helped build the sport that we love and enjoy.

But I am sorry they are just crude. There is no amount of vintage footage that will make me think otherwise.

Just as the equipment that the Soviets used to fly into space is considered crude today, so is the technique of the past. It's crude, there is no way around that fact. Forget this video, the shutter speeds, the fact that its a demonstration...look at hundreds of other videos from the era.

Sports evolve, the athlete evolves, they get stronger, faster, smarter.

I agree that boxing really took a leap in the 60s. Prior to that, it was simply not on the level of what we are used to.

You would not consider those guys professionals by today's standards.
Take someone like Lara, JMM or Klitschko look at their year as a professional and look at Gene Tunney. Look at the life that they lead, how they prepare for the fights and how they live their life outside of the ring.

It's like motorsports. I'm sorry but the days of Fangio and modern F1 are not even night and day...we are talking about different planets here.


This doesn't mean that you can't love the era or appreciate it. But to think that if you could time machine these guys over into the modern era and have them put up a proper fight against this days top fighters is lying to yourself. Maybe they would survive on toughness alone, or score a home run with a lucky punch but that's where we draw the line.


What the old timers did have, was guts and lots of them and I do not believe we will ever get fighters that are as "tough" as the old timers. In this day and age I feel like it is impossible to produce a man with as much cojones as the guys from pre WWII period. We just do not have an environment like that anymore. And sorry the ******s of America or Eastern Europe or the barrios of Latin America don't count. It was a different time back then, different life.

Anyway that's just my opinion. Agree, disagree whatever.

Well boxing has changed a lot in the last 100 years, no doubt. But a comparison to motor sports seems ridiculously unfair.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

I give all the respect in the world to the old timers because without them we would not have what we have today.

They were an important step in the evolution of the sport and the helped build the sport that we love and enjoy.

But I am sorry they are just crude. There is no amount of vintage footage that will make me think otherwise.

Just as the equipment that the Soviets used to fly into space is considered crude today, so is the technique of the past. It's crude, there is no way around that fact. Forget this video, the shutter speeds, the fact that its a demonstration...look at hundreds of other videos from the era.

Sports evolve, the athlete evolves, they get stronger, faster, smarter.

I agree that boxing really took a leap in the 60s. Prior to that, it was simply not on the level of what we are used to.

You would not consider those guys professionals by today's standards.
Take someone like Lara, JMM or Klitschko look at their year as a professional and look at Gene Tunney. Look at the life that they lead, how they prepare for the fights and how they live their life outside of the ring.

It's like motorsports. I'm sorry but the days of Fangio and modern F1 are not even night and day...we are talking about different planets here.


This doesn't mean that you can't love the era or appreciate it. But to think that if you could time machine these guys over into the modern era and have them put up a proper fight against this days top fighters is lying to yourself. Maybe they would survive on toughness alone, or score a home run with a lucky punch but that's where we draw the line.


What the old timers did have, was guts and lots of them and I do not believe we will ever get fighters that are as "tough" as the old timers. In this day and age I feel like it is impossible to produce a man with as much cojones as the guys from pre WWII period. We just do not have an environment like that anymore. And sorry the ******s of America or Eastern Europe or the barrios of Latin America don't count. It was a different time back then, different life.

Anyway that's just my opinion. Agree, disagree whatever.

I agree with most of this but let me clarify that I think there are quite a few of the old timers that could fight in today's era and be champs.

I was just making generalizations and to think there are people who think boxing in 1912 is the same as now, is ridiculous to me.

Of course boxing has evolved, everything has. All sports have benefited from advances in techniques, nutrition and training methods. The focus mitts alone where not used as much in the really old days, that's a relatively new training technique.

I heard the mitts in boxing originated in Mexico in the early 50's and so did the double end bag. I'm not really sure if that's true but you don't see old footage of mitts being used.

So again, there's been many strides made in the sport. I just think it's the old time respect that over shadows the truth.

I call it the "Bert Sugar" effect. I remember reading his lists of greatest ever, and he had no modern era fighters in the top 5 usually. It's like when you catch the fish it's 6 lbs, 20 years later it's a 15lb monster that you reeled in with your bare hands.

[Banderivets]

Well boxing has changed a lot in the last 100 years, no doubt. But a comparison to motor sports seems ridiculously unfair.

Sure it's a stretch, but I put in in there just to show that everything has become more involved so to say.

How boxing is today, and how it was. From a tough guy who laced them up and got drunk two nights before to how we have training camps and fighters staying in shape all year long. How someone used to have 4 fights a week or even a night and today they need 3 months to get ready for 1 fight.

Just like motorsports and everything else. What was done in a shed with 3 mechanics now you have an enterprise and huge teams, multiple departments and billions of dollars.

[Banderivets]

I agree with most of this but let me clarify that I think there are quite a few of the old timers that could fight in today's era and be champs.

I agree, I did not mean to say there was no one from the past that could fight today. They sure could, a champion in any era is a champion for a reason, but as you say, from a technical point of view it has advanced so much.

[GrandpaBernard]

dfadfsasdf

[RINGG]

Because processed food and the lack of manual labor make stronger athletes. The main scientific break throughs in sports are also still considered illegal even though they make them stronger and faster. I would still rate the harder work and real food diet old timers had over these scientific break throughs.