Muhammad Ali was not a great fighter

[Easy-E]

well, dundee worked with ali for 21 years, so (no offense), but i would rather believe the guy that trained him and know exactly what his strengths and weaknesses were, and the way he progressed in certain fights from others, etc., than you.

hahaha no kidding....i think ill take angelo's word here

[Yogi]

well, dundee worked with ali for 21 years, so (no offense), but i would rather believe the guy that trained him and know exactly what his strengths and weaknesses were, and the way he progressed in certain fights from others, etc., than you.

You don't have to believe one guy or the other, Butterfly.

I'm sure you have in your possession or have seen your share of Ali's fights from the 60's, and therefore should be able to come up with your own personal opinion as to Ali's best performance(s) from that time.

I trust my own opinion over what Dundee has to say, as well you should...And in my own personal opinion the Ali of the first Liston fight just may have been the best version of Ali that I've seen from that decade, especially when consideration is given to the quality of opposition he was up against.

[butterfly1964]

You don't have to believe one guy or the other, Butterfly.

I'm sure you have in your possession or have seen your share of Ali's fights from the 60's, and therefore should be able to come up with your own personal opinion as to Ali's best performance(s) from that time.

I trust my own opinion over what Dundee has to say, as well you should...And in my own personal opinion the Ali of the first Liston fight just may have been the best version of Ali that I've seen from that decade, especially when consideration is given to the quality of opposition he was up against.

that was only because liston was slow and undertrained. the shots that ali hit folley with were so fast that honestly i had to rewing the tape several times just to see the exact punches that hit him.

[Yogi]

that was only because liston was slow and undertrained. the shots that ali hit folley with were so fast that honestly i had to rewing the tape several times just to see the exact punches that hit him.

The "undertrained" version of Liston that Ali fought was still better than the past their primes version of Williams & Folley that faced Ali, and in the case of the literally & figuratively shot Williams MUCH better.

But hey, Butterfly...Dundee was under Charley Goldman's tutelage in New York, and had followed & watched Goldman's charge, Rocky Marciano, on numerous occasions while sitting at ringside (starting with Marciano's fourth pro fight). Dundee's also on record stating that he considers Marciano as the third greatest Heavyweight of all-time, and also one of the ten greatest p4p fighters in history...

Do you agree with his thoughts on that also, seeing as how, by your own logic, he was in a much better position to judge Marciano's talents than you were/are?

Or are you going to trust your own personal opinion of Marciano?

[butterfly1964]

The "undertrained" version of Liston that Ali fought was still better than the past their primes version of Williams & Folley that faced Ali, and in the case of the literally & figuratively shot Williams MUCH better.

But hey, Butterfly...Dundee was under Charley Goldman's tutelage in New York, and had followed & watched Goldman's charge, Rocky Marciano, on numerous occasions while sitting at ringside (starting with Marciano's fourth pro fight). Dundee's also on record stating that he considers Marciano as the third greatest Heavyweight of all-time, and also one of the ten greatest p4p fighters in history...

Do you agree with his thoughts on that also, seeing as how, by your own logic, he was in a much better position to judge Marciano's talents than you were/are?

Or are you going to trust your own personal opinion of Marciano?

but dundee didn't work with foreman, louis, liston, dempsey, and tyson, so he wouldn't really know how good these guy's were compared to marciano. but in the case of ali's prime, dundee had all the eye-witness info he needed to make a good judgement.

[Southpaw Stinger]

but dundee didn't work with foreman

Wasn't Dundee Foremans trainer during George's comeback.

[butterfly1964]

Wasn't Dundee Foremans trainer during George's comeback.

i meant the earlier foreman.

[Yogi]

but dundee didn't work with foreman, louis, liston, dempsey, and tyson, so he wouldn't really know how good these guy's were compared to marciano. but in the case of ali's prime, dundee had all the eye-witness info he needed to make a good judgement.

He worked with Foreman some during Big George's comeback and for the record his Dundee's all-time top ten at Heavyweight;

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Sonny Liston
5. George Foreman ("I'm going to sound bias because I worked with him when he came back to boxing")
6. Larry Holmes
7. Joe Frazier
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Max Schmeling
10. James Braddock

"but in the case of ali's prime, dundee had all the eye-witness info he needed to make a good judgement."

And so do I, as we have this wonderful thing that's been around for a while called videotape, which then means that nowadays we can watch every fight from Ali's prime in the 60's, and therefore make our own personal judgement as to what we thought was Ali's most impressive performance(s) according to what we see with our own two eyes.

Don't get me wrong, because Ali was very impressive against Folley and Williams, for sure, and I'm not saying he wasn't.

[butterfly1964]

He worked with Foreman some during Big George's comeback and for the record his Dundee's all-time top ten at Heavyweight;

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Sonny Liston
5. George Foreman ("I'm going to sound bias because I worked with him when he came back to boxing")
6. Larry Holmes
7. Joe Frazier
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Max Schmeling
10. James Braddock

"but in the case of ali's prime, dundee had all the eye-witness info he needed to make a good judgement."

And so do I, as we have this wonderful thing that's been around for a while called videotape, which then means that nowadays we can watch every fight from Ali's prime in the 60's, and therefore make our own personal judgement as to what we thought was Ali's most impressive performance(s) according to what we see with our own two eyes.

Don't get me wrong, because Ali was very impressive against Folley and Williams, for sure, and I'm not saying he wasn't.

but did you watch ali train in the gym for 21 years? no!

[Yogi]

but did you watch ali train in the gym for 21 years? no!

And what does training have to do with what we SEE from actual fight footage that we can judge for ourselves?