Jones vs Brannon

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Read holyfield's book written by his lawyer, they talk about roy jones, gave him an offer of huge money, but they could never get roy to commit, so they went with toney instead and roy went back down to 175 for tarver..

I think its a myth that roy wanted to fight holy, but he did seem up to fight tyson but tyson wasnt going to make an big fights until he declared bankruptcy so his creditors didnt get any of his big purses according to shelly finkel, and so roy wasnt going to wait around for over a year for tyson to get his bankruptcy stuff in order...

[robertzimmerman]

Sugar Adam Ali,

Thanks for the reply, and this is a great debate, with no name calling etc.

Roy was a great fighter,, Im not trying to downplay that or discredit roy's ring accomplishments. My whole view is that Roy, despite his awesome ability, and his likability, Roy never reached the status of an Ali, Srl, holyfield, oscar, floyd, manny, etc.

I agree to a certain extent. Ali, SRL and Holyfield got more exposure, and I think it cost Roy, not going down the conventional route and tying in with a big promoter. I think under different circumstances, or if he was in his 20's or 30's today, I think he would have been a huge star. I'm English, and I'm 33 years old. I bought monthly boxing magazines when I was younger, and I had to buy old VHS tapes of Roy's fights from the ads on the back page, to see him. The casual fans in Britain, didn't know who Roy was in the 90's and 00's. Most people hadn't seen him until he fought Calzaghe in 2008. Whereas Floyd and Manny are huge names in Britain and around the world, even to the casuals.

Go back and read my earlier posts on this thread, and you will see that im comparing roy to other great fighters, that went on to become ppv superstars and the face of boxing. Roy was a star no doubt, but he never reached superstardom the way floyd, oscar, holy, etc..

I agree.

Im not trying to compare him to fighters below him like calzaghe or michlewski, I was just stating the fact that for all of roy's ability, he never crossed over and became the megastar like the others i have mentioned.

Again, I agree, but it wasn't through a lack of ambition etc.

I dont think he reached the "floyd" level because since the toney win in fall of 94, he took a very safe route, and milked his HBO contract for all that it was worth, and by the time the contract expired and roy couldnt milk it any longer, he took on ruiz and tarver in 2003 in big fights, but then basically got owned by tarver, and that was it for roy..

I don't agree, as I've mentioned numerous times. Roy fought on HBO over 25 times, and his contracts always got renewed, until he could no longer fight at the top level. He didn't milk his contract, when he tried to fight Dariusz M, and he was open to a Hopkins rematch etc. Floyd gets far more exposure than Roy ever did, and he's playing the villain, where people are paying PPV in the hope of seeing him lose.

Had roy landed some big fights after toney, i think he would have reached that level of stardom that oscar, floyd, manny, holyfield etc have achieved..

I don't think Roy would ever have got to Oscar's level of stardom, had he fought all the names that he missed, that we discussed yesterday.

There was plenty of opportunities, and Roy was basically a free agent his entire career, so promoter issues wouldnt affect him as much as others.
You can make excuses like liles was a don king fighter, but so was ruiz, how can roy land a huge fight with one fighter and not the other.

Roy was always very wary of King. He used him a few times, but he never committed to him. The Ruiz fight was in 2003, and his circumstances were different to what they'd been in 1995. In 1995, King wanted to tie Roy down, and The Levin brothers wouldn't do any business with King. King didn't like Stanley Levin, and Stanley Levin didn't trust him.

Collins would have been a big fight ala floyd-hatton, had roy fought him after collins had beaten benn and eubanks 2 times each.

It would only have been big in Britain. Hatton went over to America, and impressed the media and fans with his personality and his fighting style. He was an exciting, undefeated fighter, and he also took an army of very vocal fans across with him.

Collins was respected in America, but had lost his big fights, and wasn't seen as an exciting fighter. Roy fighting Collins in the U.S. wouldn't have been a big event over there.

G-man would have been huge from 93-95

I think it would have been huge after the Benn fight. Roy's coming out party was against Toney. Before that, nobody knew how great he was. But sadly, the Benn fight was Gerald's first and last fight at 168.

Benn and eubanks would have been huge fights in 92,93,94,95,96

Eubank didn't want Roy, and I don't think it'd have been big on a global scale, because Eubank wasn't huge in America, and Roy wasn't a star in Britain.

I think a Benn fight would have been very big in America, after the McClellan fight.

liles would have been great in 96,97

That would have been a very hard fight for Roy, but again, it wasn't viable.

nunn would have been fine from 93-97, even though he was on the downhill, he would have been considered a much better opponent than a 42 year old jr mid champ, or eric lucas, or brannon, or vinny paz,

They missed each other at 160, and Nunn only had two fights at 168, while Roy fought there. But I think Roy should definitely have fought him at 175, in 1997, when he became Roy's mandatory. But Roy was looking to fight at HW at that point. What you've got to understand though, is when the Benn and Liles fights didn't happen, Roy could have stayed at 168 for a long time, and continued to fight the likes of Brannon etc. Roy gets criticised for those fights at 168, but he doesn't get credit for ditching the division, and moving up to 175, which was a lot stronger. You can't have it both ways. Go and look at the 168 division, when Roy moved up and Calzaghe and Ottke became champs. In the late 90's, the 168 division was one of the weakest divisions in boxing. That's the division that Roy left, to go and fight in the same division as Hill, Griffin, Reggie Johnson and Dariusz M etc. He could have stayed with Ottke, Eubank, Robin Reid and Richie Woodhall etc. So again, if you criticised him for fighting guys like Paz, you have to give him credit for moving up when the Benn and Liles fights couldn't be made. You have to be fair. If Roy hadn't have showed ambition at that point, he could have stayed, and I'm certain that Ottke and Calzaghe's careers would have turned out very different.

Roy's lack of big fights between toney and ruiz, really cost him his chance at becoming that megastar like floyd has become..Roy's biggest purse was 10mil for the ruiz fight, that is chump change compared to what oscar, floyd, holyfield made in their heyday...

Again, I agree. But I don't think there was any fights out there in the 90's and 00's, that would have given him the exposure and the paydays that they got.

Yes roy has alot of solid wins vs clinton woods, harding, first tarver, ruiz, reggie johnson, but not are legacy type fights and are the equivalent to Floyd fighting ghost or ortiz, good fighters, solid wins, but not the type of fights that compare to SRL battling benetiz, duran, hearns hagler, or oscar fighting tito, shane, ike, vargas, hopkins, sturm, floyd, manny,

Of course. Roy's biggest fight was against an undefeated, 26 year old Toney, who at the time, had recently beaten Nunn, Johnson and MCallum etc. The Toney fight was Roy's version of Hearns, Duran and Hagler etc.

But other than Toney, I don't think that Roy had those great rivals like SRL had, that were seen as equal to him. You could make a case for Dariusz M, but it wouldn't have been like SRL vs Hearns etc, in my opinion.

Roy's lack of huge fights in his prime cost him his chance at being on the SRL, oscar, floyd level.. Roy was just as talented, amazing in the ring, but his fights just never made him a megastar that his talent could have made him....

I agree, but again, what fights were available to him, what were the equivalent of a SRL vs Hearns, or a Floyd vs Oscar fight?

Thats all i was trying to say,, Yes roy has had a great career compared to 95% of all fighters, but when compared to guys in his league, his resume is lacking compared to oscar, floyd, Srl, etc...

Again, I agree, but that's just circumstances.

It's not just because he didn't want tough fights, and again, he didn't have the opponents like SRL had as one of the Fab Four.

[robertzimmerman]

One thing i never understood was the roy had 3 chances at tarver and never looked good, he barely pulled out a win in the first fight, yet a 40+ year old bernard who had never fought at lhw comes in and turns tarver into a sparring partner..

i never understood how roy could struggle 3 times with tarver, you can say the weight loss in the 1st fight, but the 2nd and especially the 3rd, roy had ample time, and tarver was a good fighter, but not exactly a great fighter, he will probably be in the HOF for his wins over roy, but in the grand scheme of things, tarver is slightly above average. Never understood how roy struggled with him so much, i guess styles make fights, and tarver just had the right style being a southpaw counterpuncher with a good power, but hopkins toyed with him, and roy got owned.. that always puzzled me

I think the answer to your questions, is psychology. Psychology can play a huge, huge part in the outcome of a fight.

For the first Tarver fight, Roy had cut muscle and wasn't as motivated as Tarver, due to the Tyson fight falling through. Whereas Tarver was unbelievably fired up with a point to prove. Of course Tarver's style also played a huge part in proceedings.

In the second fight, Roy had a point to prove, and was in much better shape, both physically and mentally. But he got caught with a great shot and it happens in boxing.

But at that point, Roy changed. His pride and his ego had been crushed, and he never fought in the same manner again. He became gun shy, and wouldn't fully commit.

The third Tarver fight was a complete waste of time, without Roy having at least one fight beforehand. He'd suffered crushing back to back knockouts, and hadn't fought for over a year when he met Tarver for the last time. According to Roy, he wanted a tune up, but HBO pushed it through. I think he saw losing on points as some sort of a victory, because at least he didn't get stopped for the third time in three fights.

Hopkins on the other hand, fought Tarver fully confident, and made it look easy.

But I think if Roy had've fought Tarver in 2000 (which he'd have been obligated too, if Tarver had have beaten Harding) I think Roy would have won clearly, in what would have been a competitive fight.

That's my honest opinion.

[robertzimmerman]

Read holyfield's book written by his lawyer, they talk about roy jones, gave him an offer of huge money, but they could never get roy to commit, so they went with toney instead and roy went back down to 175 for tarver..

I think its a myth that roy wanted to fight holy, but he did seem up to fight tyson but tyson wasnt going to make an big fights until he declared bankruptcy so his creditors didnt get any of his big purses according to shelly finkel, and so roy wasnt going to wait around for over a year for tyson to get his bankruptcy stuff in order...

I'd love to read the book.

From the various quotes and videos that I've seen over the years, it seems as though Roy and his team, spoke to Evander on three occasions.

In 1997, after Roy had beaten Griffin in the rematch, I've read a link where Evander wasn't interested in fighting Roy. The link gave a quote from Evander's team, that basically said, Evander wasn't interested in fighting a 5'10 LHW, implying that he'd be in a no win situation.

Next up was 2001. According to Roy, he approached Evander just before he fought Ruiz for the third and last time. They spoke of fighting each other in 2002, but the Ruiz fight was declared a draw, which meant that Ruiz was still the WBA champ. According to Roy, he then backed out of negotiations, because there would have been no title up for grabs, and he didn't think he'd have gotten credit had he won. So Roy remained at 175, until he got the opportunity to fight Ruiz late in 2002. (That's when the contracts were signed)

After Roy had beaten Ruiz in 2003, he turned down a $10m contract to fight Corrie Sanders, to instead pursue Tyson for huge money.

But although Tyson became Roy's dream fight, I've heard a few versions of why Roy didn't fight Holyfield after Ruiz.

Again, I'd love to read his book.

I read somewhere that Roy's team offered Evander a poor sum of money for the fight, and I've also read Murad Muhammad's account of things, who represented Roy back then, and who'd made him a reported $17m for the Ruiz fight.

I'm not able to post the link at the moment, but just simply type into Google - Murad Muhammad - Bernard was fearful of Roy Jones.

Type that in, and an old interview that Murad gave to F Hype.com, will instantly appear.

I've just read it.

Have a read, and tell me what you think.


Great debate!

[Sugar Adam Ali]

@robertzimmerman

the book is The Holyfield Way: by evander and James J Thomas

Its an excellent read, I read it around 2007, It covers alot of holyfield in the latter parts of his career, and his lawyer James J thomas does a great job of breaking down the details surrounding the tyson fights, vaugh bean, lewis, ruiz, etc..

They spend some time talking about roy, Roy did offer them a very low ball number, and they countered back with a 50/50 or close to it offer, and they never heard back from jones, so they went with toney.
Roy wanted something like 20 million plus, and ppv upside, and offered holyfield a few million, dont remember the exact figures, and they countered with more fair offer, but roy never made a counter offer or anything, he basically ignored them..


Its a great book and probably one of the best i have read that deals with the business side of making fights.

I highly recommend it to anyone in the history section.

[billeau2]

I think the answer to your questions, is psychology. Psychology can play a huge, huge part in the outcome of a fight.

For the first Tarver fight, Roy had cut muscle and wasn't as motivated as Tarver, due to the Tyson fight falling through. Whereas Tarver was unbelievably fired up with a point to prove. Of course Tarver's style also played a huge part in proceedings.

In the second fight, Roy had a point to prove, and was in much better shape, both physically and mentally. But he got caught with a great shot and it happens in boxing.

But at that point, Roy changed. His pride and his ego had been crushed, and he never fought in the same manner again. He became gun shy, and wouldn't fully commit.

The third Tarver fight was a complete waste of time, without Roy having at least one fight beforehand. He'd suffered crushing back to back knockouts, and hadn't fought for over a year when he met Tarver for the last time. According to Roy, he wanted a tune up, but HBO pushed it through. I think he saw losing on points as some sort of a victory, because at least he didn't get stopped for the third time in three fights.

Hopkins on the other hand, fought Tarver fully confident, and made it look easy.

But I think if Roy had've fought Tarver in 2000 (which he'd have been obligated too, if Tarver had have beaten Harding) I think Roy would have won clearly, in what would have been a competitive fight.

That's my honest opinion.

I think it is Psychological also. It goes to show that sometimes fighting is very much a mental exerscize.

I enjoyed your response to my post! when it is all said and done I think Roy and Ali had the most incredible natural ability and could do things ina mannr that was not do-able for most fighters

[Sugar Adam Ali]

I think it is Psychological also. It goes to show that sometimes fighting is very much a mental exerscize.

I enjoyed your response to my post! when it is all said and done I think Roy and Ali had the most incredible natural ability and could do things ina mannr that was not do-able for most fighters

I think donaire might be battling the same psychological problems. He has not looked good since the arce fight.. I think his confidence is hurting at the moment, especially if Vic, who was suppose to be an easy ko, was beating donaire up till the ko

[billeau2]

I think donaire might be battling the same psychological problems. He has not looked good since the arce fight.. I think his confidence is hurting at the moment, especially if Vic, who was suppose to be an easy ko, was beating donaire up till the ko

Its one of those unknown variables that loom large...the psyche can be a fragile thing

[robertzimmerman]

@robertzimmerman

the book is The Holyfield Way: by evander and James J Thomas

Its an excellent read, I read it around 2007, It covers alot of holyfield in the latter parts of his career, and his lawyer James J thomas does a great job of breaking down the details surrounding the tyson fights, vaugh bean, lewis, ruiz, etc..

They spend some time talking about roy, Roy did offer them a very low ball number, and they countered back with a 50/50 or close to it offer, and they never heard back from jones, so they went with toney.
Roy wanted something like 20 million plus, and ppv upside, and offered holyfield a few million, dont remember the exact figures, and they countered with more fair offer, but roy never made a counter offer or anything, he basically ignored them..

Its a great book and probably one of the best i have read that deals with the business side of making fights.

I highly recommend it to anyone in the history section.

Thanks for the message, I've PM'd you, I hope it's gone through.

Yes, I've also heard that they offered Evander a low offer in 2003.

Roy just wanted to make mega money to remain at HW. He was never going to fight the likes of Corrie Sanders or Vitali for around $10m.

But I do believe he wanted to fight Evander in his first fight at HW, if Evander had won the belt back from Ruiz.

[robertzimmerman]

I think it is Psychological also. It goes to show that sometimes fighting is very much a mental exerscize.

I enjoyed your response to my post! when it is all said and done I think Roy and Ali had the most incredible natural ability and could do things ina mannr that was not do-able for most fighters

I don't think people realise how much psychology plays a part, in both the successes and the failures of a fighter.

I've also enjoyed reading your posts, and this is a great debate.

I agree, Roy and Ali could do things that others fighters couldn't.

They were both very special.