Jones vs Brannon

[billeau2]

I don't think people realise how much psychology plays a part, in both the successes and the failures of a fighter.

I've also enjoyed reading your posts, and this is a great debate.

I agree, Roy and Ali could do things that others fighters couldn't.

They were both very special.

Psychological technique and training works both ways.

We all know of the fighters who had that special "kill" energy....what we call saki in Japanese martial arts....guys like Liston and big George. To my mind Tyson is the greatest example of the devestating use of psychological warfare in the ring. I have seen guys like Shannon Briggs and you can see they are big guys....Tyson actually had a reputation of looking "small." While teaching High school in San Francisco my buddy the basketball coach, who was a pretty good sized guy and a former professional B baller told me he met Tyson while out carousing one night. He told me with a chuckle "Darrell I swear, I felt like I could take this guy, he was not that big, or impressive looking in public."

Now Tyson, for the record was not really small for a heavyweight. He was the perfect size for a fireplug, explosive, fast on his feet kind of fighter. Yet he managed through psychological domination to win many of his fights before any punches were even thrown. What he did to Spinks, in this fashion, was nothing short of masterful. When one considers that Tyson did not have the wingspan of a Sonny Liston....nor did he have the gravely voice of a gangster, or tough guy....speaking in a lisp and sometimes evern stuttering. His use of intimidation is technically suave and amazing.

In general the ring is no place to lose your mojo. Tarver really managed to intimidate Jones. Looking at fighters who depend on this advantage one can see that it is quite the advantage indeed.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Psychological technique and training works both ways.

We all know of the fighters who had that special "kill" energy....what we call saki in Japanese martial arts....guys like Liston and big George. To my mind Tyson is the greatest example of the devestating use of psychological warfare in the ring. I have seen guys like Shannon Briggs and you can see they are big guys....Tyson actually had a reputation of looking "small." While teaching High school in San Francisco my buddy the basketball coach, who was a pretty good sized guy and a former professional B baller told me he met Tyson while out carousing one night. He told me with a chuckle "Darrell I swear, I felt like I could take this guy, he was not that big, or impressive looking in public."

Now Tyson, for the record was not really small for a heavyweight. He was the perfect size for a fireplug, explosive, fast on his feet kind of fighter. Yet he managed through psychological domination to win many of his fights before any punches were even thrown. What he did to Spinks, in this fashion, was nothing short of masterful. When one considers that Tyson did not have the wingspan of a Sonny Liston....nor did he have the gravely voice of a gangster, or tough guy....speaking in a lisp and sometimes evern stuttering. His use of intimidation is technically suave and amazing.

In general the ring is no place to lose your mojo. Tarver really managed to intimidate Jones. Looking at fighters who depend on this advantage one can see that it is quite the advantage indeed.

Talking about size, I think floyd is a small welter, and an extremely small 154 fighter, but i think he intimidates alot of foes with his skill level, Ghost and canelo both looked like novices in there with floyd, and i think floyd had gotten into their heads. They dont want to make a mistake and get embarrassed but the reality is, by not taking chances they get embarrassed anyways

[robertzimmerman]

Psychological technique and training works both ways.

We all know of the fighters who had that special "kill" energy....what we call saki in Japanese martial arts....guys like Liston and big George. To my mind Tyson is the greatest example of the devestating use of psychological warfare in the ring. I have seen guys like Shannon Briggs and you can see they are big guys....Tyson actually had a reputation of looking "small." While teaching High school in San Francisco my buddy the basketball coach, who was a pretty good sized guy and a former professional B baller told me he met Tyson while out carousing one night. He told me with a chuckle "Darrell I swear, I felt like I could take this guy, he was not that big, or impressive looking in public."

Now Tyson, for the record was not really small for a heavyweight. He was the perfect size for a fireplug, explosive, fast on his feet kind of fighter. Yet he managed through psychological domination to win many of his fights before any punches were even thrown. What he did to Spinks, in this fashion, was nothing short of masterful. When one considers that Tyson did not have the wingspan of a Sonny Liston....nor did he have the gravely voice of a gangster, or tough guy....speaking in a lisp and sometimes evern stuttering. His use of intimidation is technically suave and amazing.

In general the ring is no place to lose your mojo. Tarver really managed to intimidate Jones. Looking at fighters who depend on this advantage one can see that it is quite the advantage indeed.

Great post, I really enjoyed reading it.

I love Mike, and he had the aura of invincibility around him in the 80's.

But I believe that a peak version of Ali could have psyched him out, and beaten him over 15 rounds.

What do you think?

[robertzimmerman]

Talking about size, I think floyd is a small welter, and an extremely small 154 fighter, but i think he intimidates alot of foes with his skill level, Ghost and canelo both looked like novices in there with floyd, and i think floyd had gotten into their heads. They dont want to make a mistake and get embarrassed but the reality is, by not taking chances they get embarrassed anyways

Great post, and I agree.

Canelo had to go at him. I was screaming at the TV, yelling "What are you waiting for?!"

He should have pressed him into the ropes and just unloaded. But he just wouldn't commit. Like you've said, he didn't want to be embarrassed.

[Sugarj]

Great post, I really enjoyed reading it.

I love Mike, and he had the aura of invincibility around him in the 80's.

But I believe that a peak version of Ali could have psyched him out, and beaten him over 15 rounds.

What do you think?

Prime Ali would surely have beaten Tyson over 15 rounds. Tyson's distance stamina over 12 rounds is a touch under rated (he kept good pace with Tucker and Ruddock 2), but he was known for a mid rounds lull!

15 rounds with Ali (who paced the distance very well) would be a touch ambitious. But I think Ali would have some serious scares over the first 5 rounds with prime Tyson.

As for Ali psyching Tyson out. Both were pretty good at the mind games. Its interesting to think what angle Ali would take with Tyson. Ali would almost certainly ridicule his lisp and no doubt criticise his appearance......but I'm not sure that the 'dumb ignorant Uncle Tom' routine that he used with Frazier would wind up Tyson quite so much, not in the 80s anyway. Tyson would be starting fast regardless of any taunting.

I'm not one who buys into the popular belief that all you had to do to make Tyson mentally crumble was stand up to the bully. Between 1985 and incarceration he didn't show much in the way of mental weaknesses in the ring. Against Buster Douglas he took his beating like a man and didn't try to foul or quit out. He nearly pulled off one of the better come from behind victories in the eighth round too. Plenty of opponents stood up to Tyson and were simply outgunned (Tillis, Green, Ferguson, Biggs, Tubbs, Tucker, Holmes, Bruno and Ruddock). Ruddock in particular landed some scary blows.

The signs of mental weakness came after incarceration......to be fair after the first Holyfield fight (in which he again took his beating well); bitten ears, legs, attempts at breaking arms in clinches, crazy behaviour in press conferences, threatening to eat kids etc!!!!

In Tyson's prime I think he'd have simply lost a competitive decision to Ali without much drama.

[Ham Porter]

But I think if Roy had've fought Tarver in 2000 (which he'd have been obligated too, if Tarver had have beaten Harding) I think Roy would have won clearly, in what would have been a competitive fight.

Jones was obligated to fight Tarver but Murad Muhammad complained to the IBF that Tarver's number one ranking was unjustified and so they ordered a title eliminator between Harding and Tarver.

[Cardinal Buck]

Jones was obligated to fight Tarver but Murad Muhammad complained to the IBF that Tarver's number one ranking was unjustified and so they ordered a title eliminator between Harding and Tarver.

In Jones' defense, Tarver hadn't done a damn thing until that point.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

In Jones' defense, Tarver hadn't done a damn thing until that point.

Very true, he hadnt beaten anyone of note besides the likes of journeymen like rocky gannon.. Harding was his first big test.

[robertzimmerman]

Jones was obligated to fight Tarver but Murad Muhammad complained to the IBF that Tarver's number one ranking was unjustified and so they ordered a title eliminator between Harding and Tarver.

Yes, I know they asked for an eliminator.

I've read a few accounts of this. I believe that Roy wanted an extension, because he'd got other mandatory obligations with the other organisations, but I also believe that he did it to get under Tarver's skin as well.

I don't think it was a duck, because at the end of the day, Roy fought him three years later, and if Roy doesn't want to do something, then he won't do it.

He asked for the extension and the eliminator, and it was agreed upon, but only if he agreed to face the winner.

So whether Roy was in the wrong or not, he would have faced Tarver, had Tarver beaten Harding.

[Scott9945]

Jones was obligated to fight Tarver but Murad Muhammad complained to the IBF that Tarver's number one ranking was unjustified and so they ordered a title eliminator between Harding and Tarver.

If I'm not mistaken, Murad Muhammad's ex-wife was the head of the IBF back then.