Are We Sure Ali Was Better Than Louis?

[billeau2]

I come from the school of "there's no right or wrong, there's only what works for you" but I know that the purists look at Ali as doing "everything wrong". Maybe from a textbook standpoint that's true but his reflexes and speed were so unworldly that it didn't matter. To my thinking, if Ali had fought "textbook" he wouldn't have been as good as was because he wouldn't have been taking advantage of his biggest strengths and all the possibilities those strengths created.

A purist looks at Ali's footwork and says "flawed".....and it WAS from a textbook standard. He'd get his legs tangled up when moving to the left for example. It's just that the purists don't understand that the textbook didn't apply to Ali.

Your comment goes right to the heart of the matter.... When Cezane invented Cubism and Picasso started to make these very "different" paintings, the same people that mght have dismissed the work wholesale had to restrain themselves. The reason for this was that Cezane, Picasso, Serat, etc could draw and paint something in the conventional way as well as any artist that ever lived...hence when Serat rendered form in dots...and when Cubism expressed different perspectives....it could not be dismissed as the pathetic attempt of a bad artist.

The point is that Ali was an incredible fighter who had the speed and reflexes of a lightweight. He could have fought orthodox but made a decision to do otherwise....and I think he did this because as your comments intimate...He found a better way. As a matter of fact there is proof of this. Ali happened to have a deep abiding respect for martial arts. A lot if what he does with his upper body and even his footwork is characteristic of martial arts. The quick shuffling steps, the shoulder movements, the very calm approach while the other guy is trying to brain him.

Like Picasso Ali found a new vocabulary to express himself. His influence can be seen in fighters like Jones...another guy who did (occasionally still does) things that no one else could duplicate.

[soul_survivor]

Great posts by the last two guys. Ali was so gifted athletically that he got away with doing things "the wrong way", I haven't seen reflexes as fast apart from possibly a prime Naz and RJJ...there was a clip of SRR I once saw when he was a 19 year old in the GG and he let his hands down, stood on the ropes and let the other guy throw punches at him, every single punch missed. Sadly theres little footage of his prime at 147 in the pro ranks so we will never know the truth, that' why I haven't mentioned him in my list of super reflex boxers.

Anyway, back to Ali, it's either a misconception or ignorance on the part of some "fans" who think Ali was just a fancy dan living off of great natural, physical gifts. As his physical gifts faded in the mid 70s he started to rely far more on his superior technique, his jab, having lost speed was still accurate and more powerful, his right hand became a more potent weapon, his feet failed him so he started to tie guys up and push them into positions where he could hit them and they couldn't hit him. Ali also worked more on pot shotting opponents then throwing crazy 5-6 punch combos because he could no longer afford to do that. This allowed him to be the best heavy on the planet, even though he had lost his physical prime.

The same can not be said of the likes of RJJ and Naz who had little boxing fundamentals, so when their physical prime faded, they became beatable and looked average even in their wins. The great divide between them and the rest no longer existed, the gap closed because their reflexes died and their hands and feet slowed. The same can not be said for Ali who operated at the highest level and won.

[Sugarj]

i have louis at 1#, he fought the best available in his time, just like tyson when the 80's were a comparatively weak division. the 60's-70's in boxing probably had the deepest talent level ever. ali has a very unorthodox style that relies on his athletic gifts, louis was purely based on technical mastery. i have all joe louis' fights on film and i've watched them all, against the elite fighters of his time, in terms of pure skill he was on another level, easily the greatest boxer-puncher i've ever seen. some of my favorite of his fights are ones where louis struggled to get the win in the first fight, and then brutally knocked the same guy out in the rematch like he did to arturo godoy. even though louis struggled against conn, he knocked him out quicker in the 2nd fight

i agree about jack johnson, ali would give louis problems for some of the same reasons. in a fight with ali, louis is the smaller, quicker man in terms of combination speed. louis wasn't a one punch knockout finisher, he'd take guys out with suprisingly fast combinations. louis ****ed up max baer, whose style was a less skilled version of foreman's and they were very similar in terms of size and strength. i think louis would outbox liston, the worst possible match i see for joe is frazier, that swarming style would knock louis out.
walcott -ali would be a very entertaining fight to watch.

I agree with much of what you've wrote here, but I wouldn't take too much from the Conn return, it was years later and Billy wasn't anything like the same. Max Baer clearly didn't turn up at all for the Louis fight either, the one decent right hand he attempted in four rounds, he actually did quite well with.....this wasn't the same Baer who tore into Schmelling and Carnera, he was too nervous of Louis and definitely gun shy.

I too have watched all the Louis fights I've been able to get my hands on, but not all are in the public domain and not all were filmed to my knowledge so you won't have seen them all........and I must take contention with your assertion in bold that Louis's combination speed was faster than Ali's. Louis was fast, but Ali was certainly faster on the combination front.

I wouldn't pick Frazier to knock out Louis either. Not to say that he couldn't, but I like the majority would probably favour Louis to win a tough fight.

But as I said in my original post, I only have Ali a 'smidge ahead'. They were both great.

[billeau2]

I agree with much of what you've wrote here, but I wouldn't take too much from the Conn return, it was years later and Billy wasn't anything like the same. Max Baer clearly didn't turn up at all for the Louis fight either, the one decent right hand he attempted in four rounds, he actually did quite well with.....this wasn't the same Baer who tore into Schmelling and Carnera, he was too nervous of Louis and definitely gun shy.

I too have watched all the Louis fights I've been able to get my hands on, but not all are in the public domain and not all were filmed to my knowledge so you won't have seen them all........and I must take contention with your assertion in bold that Louis's combination speed was faster than Ali's. Louis was fast, but Ali was certainly faster on the combination front.

I wouldn't pick Frazier to knock out Louis either. Not to say that he couldn't, but I like the majority would probably favour Louis to win a tough fight.

But as I said in my original post, I only have Ali a 'smidge ahead'. They were both great.

To say one boxer is faster than another its a bit too nebulous a statement if we are comparing two guys who are very good but have entirely different attributes of bringing the punch to bare. For example, if we say that Jones is faster than Gatti well....yeah. No question about it. However when we discuss speed as it relates to Floyd versus Judah....it gets interesting. Floyd has punches that are straight and untelegraphed. Judah has raw speed. The question becomes who is quicker? i.e. who reaches the target first which is really what we are talking about. Quickness is refined speed, it is getting to target first.

Louis and Ali had totally different methods of delivering the punch to the target. Louis was explosive and fundamentally hyper-efficient in his delivery. He was also untelegraphed. Ali was relaxed, mobile, often even when punching, and very fast...in the manner of a Judah or Jones.

Its hard to say whether Louis or Ali got there first with their punches! I would probably say that Louis delivered more power consistantly but Ali's quickness produced punches that were insanely effective as well...like the Liston punch.

[toooooool]

Everyone loves Joe louis

Everyone loves Joe Louis but through no fault of his own,the competition
he faced was weak.Ali faced the toughest boxers in history and pretty much
beat them all..that's really the difference.

[Sugarj]

To say one boxer is faster than another its a bit too nebulous a statement if we are comparing two guys who are very good but have entirely different attributes of bringing the punch to bare. For example, if we say that Jones is faster than Gatti well....yeah. No question about it. However when we discuss speed as it relates to Floyd versus Judah....it gets interesting. Floyd has punches that are straight and untelegraphed. Judah has raw speed. The question becomes who is quicker? i.e. who reaches the target first which is really what we are talking about. Quickness is refined speed, it is getting to target first.

Louis and Ali had totally different methods of delivering the punch to the target. Louis was explosive and fundamentally hyper-efficient in his delivery. He was also untelegraphed. Ali was relaxed, mobile, often even when punching, and very fast...in the manner of a Judah or Jones.

Its hard to say whether Louis or Ali got there first with their punches! I would probably say that Louis delivered more power consistantly but Ali's quickness produced punches that were insanely effective as well...like the Liston punch.

Nice post, but it has very little relevance to my own post.

I only stated that Ali was faster on the combination front....... and whilst there isn't much in it, Ali has a clear advantage in this department. It is clear from the films and I'd have thought is an opinion shared by the majority of fight fans.

[joseph5620]

Nice post, but it has very little relevance to my own post.

I only stated that Ali was faster on the combination front....... and whilst there isn't much in it, Ali has a clear advantage in this department. It is clear from the films and I'd have thought is an opinion shared by the majority of fight fans.

That's how I see the comparison as well.

Occasionally I'll see some people claim Louis or Patterson were faster than Ali. Watching videos of the three, it's very clear for my eyes to see Ali was much faster than either one.

[Anthony342]

Your comment goes right to the heart of the matter.... When Cezane invented Cubism and Picasso started to make these very "different" paintings, the same people that mght have dismissed the work wholesale had to restrain themselves. The reason for this was that Cezane, Picasso, Serat, etc could draw and paint something in the conventional way as well as any artist that ever lived...hence when Serat rendered form in dots...and when Cubism expressed different perspectives....it could not be dismissed as the pathetic attempt of a bad artist.

The point is that Ali was an incredible fighter who had the speed and reflexes of a lightweight. He could have fought orthodox but made a decision to do otherwise....and I think he did this because as your comments intimate...He found a better way. As a matter of fact there is proof of this. Ali happened to have a deep abiding respect for martial arts. A lot if what he does with his upper body and even his footwork is characteristic of martial arts. The quick shuffling steps, the shoulder movements, the very calm approach while the other guy is trying to brain him.

Like Picasso Ali found a new vocabulary to express himself. His influence can be seen in fighters like Jones...another guy who did (occasionally still does) things that no one else could duplicate.

Bruce Lee did that as well and studied Ali, which is why you see him bouncing and moving in his later movies.

[Anthony342]

So to answer the original question, some are sure, others aren't.

[billeau2]

Bruce Lee did that as well and studied Ali, which is why you see him bouncing and moving in his later movies.

Sure did. Boxing is one of the arts studied in the Tao of the Jeet Kun Do.