Who is Greater: Evander Holyfield or Barney Ross?

[Sugar Adam Ali]

The Ring Magazine did the rankings then and do the rankings now.

What are saying is just so far from the truth and very mis informed.

Petrolle wasn't even that highly ranked, like I touched on. Still to this day he doesn't get the credit he deserves. Despite being "Italian".

Petrolle proved how good he was.

Exactly my point,, ring magazine,, so what nat fleishcer's opinion was what you took for fact,,,,,, Nat fleishcher did the RIng 100 and you guys take it as absolute truth...

ANd ring has been busted many times for corrupt rankings, just like every other ranking body...

You guys have read something and take it for fact, with no critical thinking skills,,,

[IronDanHamza]

Exactly my point,, ring magazine,, so what nat fleishcer's opinion was what you took for fact,,,,,, Nat fleishcher did the RIng 100 and you guys take it as absolute truth...

ANd ring has been busted many times for corrupt rankings, just like every other ranking body...

You guys have read something and take it for fact, with no critical thinking skills,,,

How is that your point when you said Khan is ranked #2 when he is not?

How many times? I've said numerous times my feelings of Petrolle have nothing at all to do with Rankings.

On which and how many occasions have The Ring Magazine been "busted" for Corrupt rankings?

[Bolo Punch]

It keeps constantly going back to race.

It's like

"We're off topic now. Let's just talk about their resumes"

Next response;

"Well, we don't know how good these fighters are because black fighters didn't get a chance"

Constant, irrelevant topics.

Why is it some black fighters managed to get to the top and some didn't?

Maybe, just maybe, the best fighters in Ross' divison at the time weren't black? Is that not possible?

If Adam is so set on bringing race into the debate, he should maybe take a proper look at where the guys that Barney Ross fought came from. He holds wins over fighters from three separate continents.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

So Sam Langford is the only black fighter on record before the Murderer's Row came to prominence? Umm, right...

you dont even make sense,, So langford was the only guy to get frozen out,, and all other blacks guys got fair shakes,, is that what your saying


Why does this matter? Why are you downgrading Ross' resume for things that didn't happen? Rank him on what he actually did do in his career, which was a hell of a lot.

Yes im not downgrading him,,, so chris john is the greatest fighter of the last decade,,, You cant downgrade chris johns resume for things that didnt happen,, See how easy it is to build a fighter when you have no critical thinking skills,,, Chris john has like 25 defenses of featherweight title,,, dont donwgrade him because of stuff that didnt happen..


Again, why does this matter? Are black men superior to white men? What makes you think that any fighters he didn't fight but could have done (who happened to be black) were better than the fighters in which he did fight (which happened to be white)?

Again this doesnt really have anything to do with race,, but its hard to claim a world champion when alot of races were held back,,, BAttling shaw did he get his crack,,,Nope...

Im not trying to say one race is better than another,, i think it comes down to the individual,, but its hard to judge era's when one was obviously rigged and controlled by the mafia...

I have the same problem when talking about baseball and guys bring up old-timers like babe ruth and ty cobb,,, dudes never played against a latino, asian, or black,,, are to say you are the "WORLD CHAMPION" when its nothing but white dudes,,,

i hope this clears it up for you guys on where i stand,,,, and how i form my opinions,, and if anybody is wondering im a white guy,,,

[bklynboy]

like i said in my post,, who cant name them because they were never written about and none of us were around,,,

Just use some deductive knowledge,,, obviously black guys fought back,,,
Just name the 10 best black fighters from lightweight-thru welter,,,,
Not matter if they were top ten,, just name 10 black guys from those weight classes...
Just name the top 10 black fighters at those weight classes..
You cant because your knowledge only extends to what you have read,,, not actual experiences and memories,,

I could ask you to name the top black fighters from those weight classes in the 70's and most guys on here could rattle off 25,30, 50 legit fighters, maybe not the best guys in the world but you would have no problem rattling off names,,
Now just switch the decade from 70's to 30's and your all scurrying to boxrec to do some searches, because you have no idea,,,, you didnt live then, and your only going by what you read, and others have told you......

So yes, guys then fought limited opposition,,, What international prime fighters did Ross beat,,, ever fight the UK champ, African champ, German champ, australian champ, canadian champ,
One poster said "see there was latino and black champs,, look at Battling shaw, yet did ross fight him,,,,

Most of ross' career is made up of young terry and babe ruth,,,
Take away the mcclarin and canzorni fights,, what do you have left,,,
beat up a small shot gans,, garcia was a one trick pony, probably similar to mayorga and baldomir,, guys you werent that elite yet won lineal titles,,,
Cashed out vs Armstrong the first legit black guy he fought and got pounded, and thats a fact

Who did he beat,, washed up names,, and some guys just like him,,, Im not sold on these guys being that much greater than a holyfield who fought everyone.... Take away his heavyweight career, and he is still had great fights at cruiser,, take away cruiser and he would still have fights over tyson, bowe, lennox. moorer, toney, etc...

For real-- Take away mcclarin, and canzori off Ross resume,, then take whatever 2 fighters you want off Holy's resume,,,,, Take tyson and bowe off his resume, and he still is undisputed cruiser champ, still heavy champ, wins over moorer, mercer, foreman, ruiz, holmes

What is ross left after mcclarin and canzori are taken off his resume,,,, he aint got nothing but washed up names like gans,,,

So you guys get hyped because you read how good ross was and the battles were epic, but whose to say they just werent some gatti level fighters, that would get beatdown if they fought a prime black guy like what armstrong did to ross,,, He didnt look to great in that fight,,

Were the champs in other countries truly the equal of those in NYC? Japan, I think we can agree, has a martial tradition (and the Japanese fighters from the 1920s and 1930 would most likely be from bantamweight to middleweight) and yet there were no Japanese champions until the 1960s. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_in_Japan)

Is it because the mob prevented them or because boxing was not as popular there. There may have been many Japanese fighters from the 1920s and 1930s who could have been trained as boxers and deserved to have title fights with Barney Ross -- the only thing was, they chose to specialize and compete in Japanese martial arts (judo, kendo, aikido, karate, shotokan) and not "boxing".

Were there boxers in Argentina or South Africa who could have competed successfully with Barney Ross? Maybe. But we don't know them. Today going from Buenos Aires or Johannesburg to NYC is easy. Back then less so and far more expensive. Promoters would have to know of other fighters and have the where-with-all to set up a fight. Why don't we know of these great "other" fighters? Why are these great "other" fighters so completely anonymous?

[bklynboy]

i always breakdown boxing in 3 eras,,,

old school- 1900's-1960's
TV era-1960's-1990's
PPV era 1990's-present....

This would probably make a great thread - how does one breakdown boxing eras?

I consider boxing to have 3 (maybe 4) eras.
1920-1980: the classic era. The sport is legal, judges providing decision victories, 15 3 minute rounds, etc...
1980-present: the sport goes from single champions to belt holders (meaning that many times the top 2 or 3 fighters per division never face each other
1890-1920: The transition from LPR to modern boxing. It's illegal in many places; fights aren't scored in an organized manner, etc...

[Sugar Adam Ali]

If Adam is so set on bringing race into the debate, he should maybe take a proper look at where the guys that Barney Ross fought came from. He holds wins over fighters from three separate continents.

Which top guys where they????

Please tell me what countries these guys were champs from????
did he fight the african champ, german champ, euro champ, mexican champ etc,,

or did he fight some handpicked guys

And ross was a 3 division champion of the world but never fought another champ from outside the states....

I know you will say GArcia,,, but that guy is super overrated,, yes went on to win middleweight title,,
but so did baldomir and mayorga win lineal titles,,, doesnt make you great,,,

[Bolo Punch]

Which top guys where they????

Please tell me what countries these guys were champs from????
did he fight the african champ, german champ, euro champ, mexican champ etc,,

or did he fight some handpicked guys

And ross was a 3 division champion of the world but never fought another champ from outside the states....

I know you will say GArcia,,, but that guy is super overrated,, yes went on to win middleweight title,,
but so did baldomir and mayorga win lineal titles,,, doesnt make you great,,,

Jimmy McLarnin of Ireland, Ceferino Garcia of the Philippines and Multiple fighters of the United States. Is that good enough for you?

Also, I'd love to know how Garcia is 'super overrated'.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Were the champs in other countries truly the equal of those in NYC? Japan, I think we can agree, has a martial tradition (and the Japanese fighters from the 1920s and 1930 would most likely be from bantamweight to middleweight) and yet there were no Japanese champions until the 1960s. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_in_Japan)

Is it because the mob prevented them or because boxing was not as popular there. There may have been many Japanese fighters from the 1920s and 1930s who could have been trained as boxers and deserved to have title fights with Barney Ross -- the only thing was, they chose to specialize and compete in Japanese martial arts (judo, kendo, aikido, karate, shotokan) and not "boxing".

Were there boxers in Argentina or South Africa who could have competed successfully with Barney Ross? Maybe. But we don't know them. Today going from Buenos Aires or Johannesburg to NYC is easy. Back then less so and far more expensive. Promoters would have to know of other fighters and have the where-with-all to set up a fight. Why don't we know of these great "other" fighters? Why are these great "other" fighters so completely anonymous?

Great post,,,

But to answer your question,, a guy like battling shaw was known,, and each country/region has there own champs and yes they may not be known to the US public but im sure in argentina, brazil, japan, etc they knew these guys,,, and know its like 80 years later, everyone is dead, and you have guys on this site reading books and ring magazines and basically being told what to think instead of critically thinking themselves....

It doesnt take a genius to realize that pre 1960s the sport was very subdivided and not as open as it is today,,, Yet you have posters claiming these guys are superior to guys that actually fought at a world level,...
Does that make sense,,,
Yes Ross could beat up alot of guys in his domestic fights,,,, never really seen him tested at the world level,,, henry armstrong was legit, and ross got beatdown,,,,

Please someone name a champion from another country that ross whipped, and he had 3 divisions to chose from, so im pretty sure there was fights to make,,,,
But there was a chance at ross losing, spoiling the tickets sales he was ringing in, so the people in charge (mob) had great matchmaking and here we are 80 years later thinking a guy that never fought on the WORLD level is leaps and bounds better than Holyfield who at least fought in the olympics at an international fighter,, beat everyone at cruiser, and was a 2 time lineal champ, and has fought every champion but in front of him,,,
Not saying Holyfield is the greatest, but it hard to fathom how some of these posters can make such a sure and confident claim as ross is so much better than holy,,,
They say look at his resume,, look at the names,, and its funny because none of these guys figured it out for themselves,,they just use the ring rankings, which is one guys opinion,,,, I heard guys say that Ross is top 5 ALL TIME,,,, WTF,, dude is nowhere near a SRR, SRL, BEnetiz, zarate etc
But 80 years ago, Ring claimed this guy was the best, and people with no critical thinking skills believe it, and act like they have superior wisdom when they cant even come up with answers....

THese guys act like they know everything about the sport back then, yet they have no context,,, Like that idiot that brought Gans as a top guy,, yeah maybe gans was good the decade before, but ross fought a shell of a man, and yet this idiot doesnt know that, all he knows is people say gans was good, people say ross was great,,, yet it would be like somebody giving Calzaghe huge credit for beating the Great Roy jones,,,,
Sounds crazy now, but we know the context,, but watch 80 years from now their will be idiots saying Calzghe was the best of his era,, beat the great roy jones,,,

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Jimmy McLarnin of Ireland, Ceferino Garcia of the Philippines and Multiple fighters of the United States. Is that good enough for you?

Also, I'd love to know how Garcia is 'super overrated'.

Mccalrin,, the same irish mob connections,, same thing as ross,,,

Garcia,, I already knew you would bring that up,,, A traveling journeymen

Great Ross has fights with his stablemate, and a travelling journeymen that scored big years later at middleweight,,,,

much like how JLC, mayorga, baldomir all had alot of losses early, then went on to win titles as they got better as a pro,,,
Garcia was not a legit contender at the time he fought Ross,, he was a cherrypick, that went on to win a title later on,, but at the time he wasnt considered to be a serious contender,,, You have to know the context
But i love how in hindsight you can say he fought Garcia like it was a legit serious fight, and not a travelling journeymen who would be considered much like a glen johnson is today

Arent you the same guy that thought GANS was a good win,,,, lol

Please think for yourself and not just what people tell you