When we were Kings(Foreman on the bag :D)

[Thunder Lips]

Once again a gross understatement, Earnie shavers didn't hover around 200 lbs he came to most of his fights 210+ even as high as 230 almost, you looked at shavers lowest weight he ever made in his career and called it his natural weight.

Archie Moore also said Patterson hit harder than Marciano, Marciano simply wore fighters down.

Marciano's natural weight was 186, Foreman's prime weight was probably 224

Shavers didn't come in at 210 until the Quarry fight, the 47th of his career and a piss poor performance at that. He was consistently in the 200-205 range for a good chunk of his better conditioned early years. It is the only the sporadic last half of his career that we see a much heavier Shavers' flucutating often very dramatically between 210-220+; outside of maybe the Ali fight his stamina and conditioning was vey questionable during this period. Anyway, I seriously doubt that Shavers at 204 was somehow a lesser puncher than when he was at 220; the guy simply carried a huge punch.

I cannot agree that Foreman's prime weight was 224 as his only noteworthy win was the Norton massacre. He was at his best and most proven at or below 220 where he beat Frazier, Kirkman, fought 20 hard rounds against Peralta, and gave Ali hell. The majority of his fights above 220 during his first career was after the Rumble and he looked like crap in most of them, unless you count the Lye knockdown fest, Frazier II, and the Young schooling as his prime.


"How would anyone know if Marciano was a freak of punching power? he never tested himself against opponents bigger than him! Even guys smaller than him he had trouble with!"

At least 30+ of his 49 opponents outweighed him at the time of the fight while he was almost always at a reach and height disadvantage. Not sure where your coming from with this one.

Marciano did stop big 220+ lb men. Jerry Jackson had an 80 lb weight advantage at least and he got koed in the first. Shkor was 6'2" 220 and Wilson was a muscular 230.

"Shkor was big and strong, and his mauling tactics were worrisome to Marciano for four rounds. Johnny stayed at close quarters and leaned on his opponent, trying to tire him out. Even so, Rocky did enough punching to win the first three rounds and the fourth was even. Marciano began to find the range in the fifth and knocked Shkor down with a left hook and a right to the eye just before the bell. Marciano came out in the sixth throwing bombs and Shkor was down for three nine-counts before the fight was stopped."

"Bout was stopped because of a deep cut over Wilson's left eye. Marciano concentrated on using his left hook in the brief fight. The crowd of 3351 booed the quick ending because Wilson was a willing and strong opponent, but the fight had to be stopped because of the severity of Bill's injury"

-boxrec


Problem is that these two were capable but not great fighters, while Rocky wasn't really at his best at this point either. I believe the correct argument was that a peak Rocky's wasn't tested against 220+ lb Contenders or Champions.

[Thunder Lips]

actually, that picture is NOT the punch that Marciano knocked Walcott out with. that punch came earlier in the fight. well, obviously it was earlier because Walcott was knocked out cold and theres no way that fight would continue after that, haha. but yea, Walcott was not knocked out by that punch, but it does look pretty bad, doesnt it?

for the most part, Rocky was the kind of guy who wore you down and finished you off with powerful punches. he didnt have the kind of power that Foreman did, imo. but the good thing about Rocky is that his power stayed with him for pretty much the whole fight, which you really couldnt say about Foreman.
but Marciano just did not have the kind of raw power Foreman did.

Thanks, your absolutely right. Walcott had some whiskers to walk away from that one. I also agree completely with your Foreman/Marciano comparision.

This is actually the Walcott knockout punch though it isn't at the moment of impact.

[IMG]http://www.******media.com/images/marciano-walcott.jpg[/IMG]

[them_apples]

Shavers didn't come in at 210 until the Quarry fight, the 47th of his career and a piss poor performance at that. He was consistently in the 200-205 range for a good chunk of his better conditioned early years. It is the only the sporadic last half of his career that we see a much heavier Shavers' flucutating often very dramatically between 210-220+; outside of maybe the Ali fight his stamina and conditioning was vey questionable during this period. Anyway, I seriously doubt that Shavers at 204 was somehow a lesser puncher than when he was at 220; the guy simply carried a huge punch.

True, shavers was a lanky sorta guy.

I can't say any of those big guys Marciano fought were credible opponents, chances are they were out of shape/fat with records that bad.

[Thunder Lips]

True, shavers was a lanky sorta guy.

I can't say any of those big guys Marciano fought were credible opponents, chances are they were out of shape/fat with records that bad.

They weren't fat and out of shape.

Skhor was a big and ripped US Navy product.




"Big" Bill Wilson was large and muscular.




Both guys were big strong punchers by most accounts and as evident by their career ko/win percentage. They just weren't great boxers, they lost many decisions but were reasonably durable having only been stopped a few times before facing Rocky. But yeah, they were really just tests for a still developing Marciano. Wilson did have a decent record though(42-11).

Though he only hovered around 200 lbs in his prime. Layne was a pretty strong muscular guy and a legit contender before and after he fought Rocky:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Yfdbn4CxY5k

Louis and ****ell were well over 200 but they aren't fair to judge by. Louis was still reasonably good but terribly faded, and Rocky wasn't in great shape for the ****ell fight though he still stopped him.

I agree that there are certainly questions that can be raised about Marciano's ability to handle the Super Heavies that have rose in recent time though oddly enough that can be said for many of the past greats. We can only look at we have and draw our own conclusions.

I personally just wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Rocky's punching power over his weight, I mean the smallish 185 lb Cooper nearly stopped the durable 6'3" 200+ lb Ali with the one flush shot he landed in one example off the top of my head. Anything can happen once were talking 180+ guys with big natural punching power and Rocky did have one punch power. Though Marciano's greatest edge was his stamina and workrate as myself and others mentioned.

[Yogi]

actually, that picture is NOT the punch that Marciano knocked Walcott out with. that punch came earlier in the fight. well, obviously it was earlier because Walcott was knocked out cold and theres no way that fight would continue after that, haha. but yea, Walcott was not knocked out by that punch, but it does look pretty bad, doesnt it?

That famous photo of Marciano landing that right hand has actually been pinned down to have occured in the 7th round of the fight if anyone wants to look at the fight and check it out. It happens sometime that round when Walcott's back is to the camera, though.

[Yogi]

Shavers' best fighting weight was at 210 and just a little below, and it was only after he hit his 30's did we start to see him get a little "softer" and start to gain weight.

Shavers also hit harder than Foreman too, of that I have little doubt, and I'll base that on basically every common opponent of their's stating that Shavers hit them the hardest of the two.

Some quotes;

"Oooh man, that man is always with me. He hit so hard, the HARDEST (emphasis taken directly from quote). I still feel his punches today." - Jimmy Young on Shavers

"Shavers hit me so hard it felt like needles were jabbing the back of my head. Without hesitation, Shavers was the hardest puncher I met." - Ron Lyle

"Shavers. No question. At least with Foreman I was able to get up. When Shavers hit me I went down and stayed down." - Ken Norton when asked who hit harder

"Lyle hit about the same as Foreman. Shavers hit harder than Lyle and Foreman put together." - Leroy Caldwell

Of course, Ali has on many occasions stated that the hardest punch he ever recieved was that right hand that rocked him back against the ropes in the second round of his fight with Shavers.

[Southpaw Stinger]

Shavers' best fighting weight was at 210 and just a little below, and it was only after he hit his 30's did we start to see him get a little "softer" and start to gain weight.

Shavers also hit harder than Foreman too, of that I have little doubt, and I'll base that on basically every common opponent of their's stating that Shavers hit them the hardest of the two.

Some quotes;

"Oooh man, that man is always with me. He hit so hard, the HARDEST (emphasis taken directly from quote). I still feel his punches today." - Jimmy Young on Shavers

"Shavers hit me so hard it felt like needles were jabbing the back of my head. Without hesitation, Shavers was the hardest puncher I met." - Ron Lyle

"Shavers. No question. At least with Foreman I was able to get up. When Shavers hit me I went down and stayed down." - Ken Norton when asked who hit harder

"Lyle hit about the same as Foreman. Shavers hit harder than Lyle and Foreman put together." - Leroy Caldwell

Of course, Ali has on many occasions stated that the hardest punch he ever recieved was that right hand that rocked him back against the ropes in the second round of his fight with Shavers.

I've seen Shavers fight, Yogi. Was in Liverpool last year, the guy was half his age. More of a friendly exhibition than a fight and it ended in a draw I think but no one cared about the scoring. I could tell from the other guys expressions that Mr Shavers still has a good right. Now I'm just waiting to be ringside at an Ali fight, although the guys not responding to my letters...

[Boogie Nights]

Shavers' best fighting weight was at 210 and just a little below, and it was only after he hit his 30's did we start to see him get a little "softer" and start to gain weight.

Shavers also hit harder than Foreman too, of that I have little doubt, and I'll base that on basically every common opponent of their's stating that Shavers hit them the hardest of the two.

Some quotes;

"Oooh man, that man is always with me. He hit so hard, the HARDEST (emphasis taken directly from quote). I still feel his punches today." - Jimmy Young on Shavers

"Shavers hit me so hard it felt like needles were jabbing the back of my head. Without hesitation, Shavers was the hardest puncher I met." - Ron Lyle

"Shavers. No question. At least with Foreman I was able to get up. When Shavers hit me I went down and stayed down." - Ken Norton when asked who hit harder

"Lyle hit about the same as Foreman. Shavers hit harder than Lyle and Foreman put together." - Leroy Caldwell

Of course, Ali has on many occasions stated that the hardest punch he ever recieved was that right hand that rocked him back against the ropes in the second round of his fight with Shavers.

Wow, yogi thanks for this, some interesting quotes here. i am now starting to change my mind about foreman being the harder puncher of the two. i always thought george was the hardest puncher, and then i always ranked earnie after him

funny thing about that is that i always knew shavers punched like a mule, there's no question. but the funny thing is, when shavers punched, and the impact was obvious, it never looked like he really put that much force into it, at least to me. when foreman punched you could see him load up and it looked like he was gonna take the house down with one of his hooks. maybe it looked that way because george was such a looping puncher in contrast, and threw much wider haymakers, that it looked like the force of his punch was more powerful.

but when they were throwing shots it always looked like foreman was really about to tackle you. it's funny that way. plus foreman was much bigger than earnie, 6'3 220-225, earnie 6'' even, 205-210. i dont know man.

[ben41193]

Intresting point, noone has brought up yet, DID LISTON hit harder than marciano?

[them_apples]

Intresting point, noone has brought up yet, DID LISTON hit harder than marciano?

I would say so, although because of Liston's lack of speed he wasn't much of a KO artist.