How would dempsey do against todays Heavyweights?

[billeau2]

Travesty will accuse people of ducking a question even after it has been answered, when it isn't the answer he wants to hear. He derails and hijacks threads all the time. He does this on every thread, about every topic he argues in, which is many. Dempsey, Mayweather, whites on welfare...he'll run in circles regurgitating the same nonsense. He'll keep it polite until he knows you aren't going to come around to his way to thinking, and then the passive-aggressive attacks come out and the insults. Then there are these odd challenges he throws down, as if there were some sort of trophy to win. Very odd behavior which follows a very predictable pattern.

If we were to get back on topic, it's safe to say Dempsey would have been competitive with modern era HWs. Win some, lose some. It's very difficult to compare fighters of different eras, but from what he know and from what I have seen and researched, he would likely be a CW today and probably one of the best CW's of all time alongside Holyfield. There is also enough to suggest modern day Dempsey may also have been an MMA fighter. He wrote a book on self-defense and taught it in the Coast Guard. He studied different forms of martial arts after his boxing career.

One thing is for certain, whether you are a fan or not, he was one of the most important figures in the sport boxing. Launched it into the mainstream, broke gate records and his popularity was equal to Babe Ruth at the time. He paved the way for future champions like Louis, Robinson, Marciano, Ali, etc. He was a polarizing figure and cultural icon. As a man he came a long way from his rough and tumble youth. He matured into a humble man who went on to serve his country honorably when he didn't really have to, and spoke admirably about his former opponents. Much like Joe Louis, he was a modest man who extended respect and professional courtesy to other fighters, unlike many modern day "best evers". Joe Louis himself called Dempsey the greatest heavyweight in history. Maybe he was just being kind as Joe often was, it still serves as a ringing endorsement for Dempsey's greatness, importance and impact he had on the great sport of boxing.

The Earth is flat because I can see ahead of me for miles, and because airplanes do not fly into space. Celestial mechanics are a conspiracy, I only trust what i can see! And satelites don't exist either, they are just points on the dome covering the flat earth.

There exists a magical material that makes a man's hands as hard as metal. Just a strand upon the hand and the man can punch through flesh like it is cucumber flesh!

[GhostofDempsey]

The Earth is flat because I can see ahead of me for miles, and because airplanes do not fly into space. Celestial mechanics are a conspiracy, I only trust what i can see! And satelites don't exist either, they are just points on the dome covering the flat earth.

There exists a magical material that makes a man's hands as hard as metal. Just a strand upon the hand and the man can punch through flesh like it is cucumber flesh!

Indeed, conspiracies everywhere. Silly me, I forgot to wear my tinfoil hat again. Perhaps there is some magical hardening tape I can wrap around my head instead.

Little known fact, Jess Willard once killed a fighter with an uppercut. No one ever spoke of loaded gloves or magical tape. As with most fighters who killed men inside the ring, he lived with remorse over that fight for the rest of his life.

[billeau2]

Indeed, conspiracies everywhere. Silly me, I forgot to wear my tinfoil hat again. Perhaps there is some magical hardening tape I can wrap around my head instead.

Little known fact, Jess Willard once killed a fighter with an uppercut. No one ever spoke of loaded gloves or magical tape. As with most fighters who killed men inside the ring, he lived with remorse over that fight for the rest of his life.

Killing in the ring probably is responsible for many guys who could have been better, cooling it. Max Bauer is another example. He allegedly became a real "clown" in the ring because he did not want to hurt others, that is what his family said.

[StarshipTrooper]

Killing in the ring probably is responsible for many guys who could have been better, cooling it. Max Bauer is another example. He allegedly became a real "clown" in the ring because he did not want to hurt others, that is what his family said.

Ezzard Charles comes to mind....

[GhostofDempsey]

Killing in the ring probably is responsible for many guys who could have been better, cooling it. Max Bauer is another example. He allegedly became a real "clown" in the ring because he did not want to hurt others, that is what his family said.

Yes, the reputation that Baer had as a killer and the portrayal of him in Cinderella Man, was an injustice. He was actually tormented by the men he killed in the ring and wasn't the same fighter afterwards. Emile Griffith and Ray Mancini suffered the same remorse.

Ezzard Charles comes to mind....

There was a lot of talk that Charles eased up on Marciano and just could not go in for the kill in that first fight, as a result of killing a man in the ring. He was never the same fighter again.

[billeau2]

Ezzard Charles comes to mind....

Yes, the reputation that Baer had as a killer and the portrayal of him in Cinderella Man, was an injustice. He was actually tormented by the men he killed in the ring and wasn't the same fighter afterwards. Emile Griffith and Ray Mancini suffered the same remorse.



There was a lot of talk that Charles eased up on Marciano and just could not go in for the kill in that first fight, as a result of killing a man in the ring. He was never the same fighter again.

Alas we are human beings first and then fighters.

[travestyny]

see now you are putting words in my mouth... I explained exactly what my opinion is based upon. Tapes don't harden, therefore there has to be some other explanation. Show me a tape that hardens... If everyone says jump off the roof, that makes it the right thing to do?

Why would someone lie about a tape hardening? What sense does that make? Would you be more likely to believe this if he wet the tape? Is that it? He needed to add something to the tape?

I never claimed it was in anybody's mind. I did perhaps intimate that there might be other things at work... it is why I thought you were initially referring to an actual "hard object" in the gloves and not the magic tape. People are very easy to fool regarding perception...

Perception. I thought you were just saying that McCoy, for one had the perception that the tape caused excess damage. Isn't that what you were saying to explain away why he kept it over his knuckes?

What exactly is "extra damage" do you see how ridiculous these ideas you pull up are? You don't listen to alternative points of view at times... Dempsey was a very hard puncher. how would anyone be able to pick the parts of his punches where the magic tape did the damage...oh let me guess they would compare the profile to Kid McCoy, they went in, photographed the opponent and compared the two types of skin abrasions right? You see how ridiculous you are being? these men had certain things they did and uncategorically made assumptions... MAYBE they were right... Then we should have a substance that works that way.

No one is arguing that McCoy and Dempsey weren't hard punchers. A hard puncher will do even more damage with hardened wraps. I don't think it is a difficult concept.

KeARNS was a lair, a fraud, a freakin criminal you idiot! lol. he would have incriminated his mom for a few nickels to pick up...Dempsey had to work with him for a while....JESUS mother of Mary you can be thick lol.

This is what you meant by "claws." Don't believe I ever insulted you. You were the first one to throw around such insults. Not that it matters to me.

Kearns was everything you mentioned above. And Kearns accusations were about plaster, not about using this tape. The point is that Kearns said if you turn your head, people were using bicycle tape to cheat. Well guess what. Deforest said Dempsey was using a certain kind of tape that hardens. So what was DeForest?

And how the hell would DEForest know that a tape causes damage? Is is a solid object? I he a chemical engineer? who took bike tape and made a new element out of it? And wait wait.....heres the star witness, bring him in from the drunk tank....Kid MCcoy! The judge says: Mr MCcoy you are here for drinking!" the kid says "Lets get strrrted judge."

How would the trainer know that the tape hardens and does extra damage? Um...because he knows that the tape hardens and a harder fist will do more damage than a normal fist. I think that's common sense.

Do you know anything about McCoy junior? bet you did not know that he was cited in one of the first texts written about professional prize fighting, I have a copy of it. We are told that his Corkscrew punch, as demonstrated at the gymnasium in England for the trainer who wrote the book....cuts the skin with the hand movement....BECAUSE THE AUTHOR ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED KID MCCOY HITTING HIM WITH NO TAPE TO SPEAK OF> So apparently Kid MCcoy DID NOT NEED THE TAPE TO CUT THE SKIN WITH HIS PUNCH. Want the source material? He actually almost broke the author's tooth as well. Hie corkscrew punch had a cutting effect, tape or no tape.

That's not the point. We know McCoy can punch. The point is his punches would hurt more if his fist is made to be harder. Again, this is common sense.

Boxing writers ans others have all vouched that this was the likely scenerio (your words regarding the tape). yes they have, and upon closer inspection it appears they may be mistaken.

So they "may be mistaken," yet you are arguing that I'm an idiot and thick and I'm wrong. Huh???????

Once we look at what the evidence is regarding this magic substance and some of the history. Likely is a modifier... it is also highly unlikely the earth moves with every step we take, but that is exactly what Neuton's law of action reaction states...you dig!?

But then you really do me in I guess...Because Carpenteir checked the gloves!!!! Yup, there is a source to hang one's hat upon... Don't even try to explain that one lol. Please spare me lol.

Not sure what you're getting at here. Carpentier asked that the tape be removed. There is a reason for that.

I tried to be nice but you couldn't leave well enough alone and you got the claws... the tape known as Bike tape is for sale in the Sear's catalogue and it is designed to stay soft...you hear me Travesty!!?? Stay soft, so it acts as part of the tire.

Great. Give the link for it and show that this is the same exact tape that DeForest is referring to since you are so sure that DeForest is making this up out of nowhere.

Your argument is akin to the medieval philosophers arguing about how many angels are on the head of a pin... One day it was discovered that nobody had actually seen any angels on the head of a pin... Magic Tapes that get as hard as brick, because MCcoy used it! never mind we can't find it...people are talking about it so it must exist huh?

People are talking about it that have no reason to lie about it. No reason at all.

Look I love ya like a little brother but your straining my credability with nonsense now. Find me that tape and we can talk...and explain to me how a thin band of even metal can work through hand coverings and gloves to add such power to a punch.

LMAO. I'm willing to bet that I'm older than you. Little brother? You can kill that noise.

GhostofDempsey is right. You know how I do. I'm willing to go back into the Thunderdome and have a debate about this. We pick 3 neutral judges and have them review all of the information that we present. Then we'll find out which of us is more believable. I don't have any bad blood with you, so we don't have to do any type of sig challenge or permaban or any other puerile challenge associated with it. All I ask for is 3 neutral judges. You can even have GhostofDempsey be your tag team partner.

I'm willing to believe that I can convince 3 unbiased people that Dempsey used this tape and that it is more than reasonable to believe that it hardened and caused more damage than if it were not used.


Do you accept this challenge?

[billeau2]

Why would someone lie about a tape hardening? What sense does that make? Would you be more likely to believe this if he wet the tape? Is that it? He needed to add something to the tape?



Perception. I thought you were just saying that McCoy, for one had the perception that the tape caused excess damage. Isn't that what you were saying to explain away why he kept it over his knuckes?



No one is arguing that McCoy and Dempsey weren't hard punchers. A hard puncher will do even more damage with hardened wraps. I don't think it is a difficult concept.



This is what you meant by "claws." Don't believe I ever insulted you. You were the first one to throw around such insults. Not that it matters to me.

Kearns was everything you mentioned above. And Kearns accusations were about plaster, not about using this tape. The point is that Kearns said if you turn your head, people were using bicycle tape to cheat. Well guess what. Deforest said Dempsey was using a certain kind of tape that hardens. So what was DeForest?



How would the trainer know that the tape hardens and does extra damage? Um...because he knows that the tape hardens and a harder fist will do more damage than a normal fist. I think that's common sense.



That's not the point. We know McCoy can punch. The point is his punches would hurt more if his fist is made to be harder. Again, this is common sense.



So they "may be mistaken," yet you are arguing that I'm an idiot and thick and I'm wrong. Huh???????



Not sure what you're getting at here. Carpentier asked that the tape be removed. There is a reason for that.



Great. Give the link for it and show that this is the same exact tape that DeForest is referring to since you are so sure that DeForest is making this up out of nowhere.



People are talking about it that have no reason to lie about it. No reason at all.




LMAO. I'm willing to bet that I'm older than you. Little brother? You can kill that noise.

GhostofDempsey is right. You know how I do. I'm willing to go back into the Thunderdome and have a debate about this. We pick 3 neutral judges and have them review all of the information that we present. Then we'll find out which of us is more believable. I don't have any bad blood with you, so we don't have to do any type of sig challenge or permaban or any other puerile challenge associated with it. All I ask for is 3 neutral judges. You can even have GhostofDempsey be your tag team partner.

I'm willing to believe that I can convince 3 unbiased people that Dempsey used this tape and that it is more than reasonable to believe that it hardened and caused more damage than if it were not used.


Do you accept this challenge?

Peope are often misled. People often lie, people often describe an event according to prejudices...which is why extraordinary claims need extra ordinary proof. People are often misled by their own prejudices and nothing more...like tonics that take illnesses away, and tapes that magically harden, etc.

If you would listen for a change... and stop insisting that people are motivated to describe the truth with a capital "T" or to Lie, etc... you would understand the points I am making. If someone had come to you while you were in the barber chair getting leeched for a cold and told you those symptoms were little creatures attacking your blood stream and and... your blood stream had its own little creatures attacking back...you would think them nuts, especially considering the perfectly respectable theory of humors in the body rising, balancing and needing to be in balance to stop Dis-ease. But the theory about the little creatures turns out to be correct, or at least a hell of a lot more useful for treating diseases.

People are easily misled... Five people at a scene will tell you five different things that happened...

The point is whether we are discussing a theory, an event that occured, etc, one can not take anecdotal evidence as fact. It has to correspond, it has to forensically add up. There simply is no material that could do what this magic tape does Travesty. You fail to see that. nobody can be more than a finger pointing in the right direction. I know you would rather bolster the credability of the people involved but there is nothing supernatural that needs explaining when talking about the beating Dempsey laid on Willard. Its not like Ali's corkscrew punch which may have strained credability to some... it makes sense! watch the footage and it is obvious why Willard looked like he did, we don't need magic tape to explain it. As I explained to you MCcoy was also known, and demonstrated (sans tape) that he could hit hard enough to disfigure under some conditions.

If you don't need the tape to explain it then we go to William of Occkham.

As far as challenges I don't care. I have a certain amount of time to post an evening and would rather not wrap in one subject but if you start a thread I will respond.

[travestyny]

Peope are often misled. People often lie, people often describe an event according to prejudices...which is why extraordinary claims need extra ordinary proof. People are often misled by their own prejudices and nothing more...like tonics that take illnesses away, and tapes that magically harden, etc.

If you would listen for a change... and stop insisting that people are motivated to describe the truth with a capital "T" or to Lie, etc... you would understand the points I am making. If someone had come to you while you were in the barber chair getting leeched for a cold and told you those symptoms were little creatures attacking your blood stream and and... your blood stream had its own little creatures attacking back...you would think them nuts, especially considering the perfectly respectable theory of humors in the body rising, balancing and needing to be in balance to stop Dis-ease. But the theory about the little creatures turns out to be correct, or at least a hell of a lot more useful for treating diseases.

People are easily misled... Five people at a scene will tell you five different things that happened...

The point is whether we are discussing a theory, an event that occured, etc, one can not take anecdotal evidence as fact. It has to correspond, it has to forensically add up. There simply is no material that could do what this magic tape does Travesty. You fail to see that. nobody can be more than a finger pointing in the right direction. I know you would rather bolster the credability of the people involved but there is nothing supernatural that needs explaining when talking about the beating Dempsey laid on Willard. Its not like Ali's corkscrew punch which may have strained credability to some... it makes sense! watch the footage and it is obvious why Willard looked like he did, we don't need magic tape to explain it. As I explained to you MCcoy was also known, and demonstrated (sans tape) that he could hit hard enough to disfigure under some conditions.

If you don't need the tape to explain it then we go to William of Occkham.

As far as challenges I don't care. I have a certain amount of time to post an evening and would rather not wrap in one subject but if you start a thread I will respond.

Again, I am not arguing that Dempsey was not a hard puncher. I've never argued that he wasn't a hard puncher, nor Kid McCoy.

It's simple common sense that their punches would do even more damage if their fists were made harder. You seem to have a problem with believing that the tape made their fists harder. A bunch of people have commented on this in books and to you it doesn't make sense. Anecdotal evidence of McCoy leaving it purposely over his knuckles CLEARLY DUE TO THE BELIEF THAT IT MAKES HIS PUNCHES HARDER. Wouldn't that be the point? When I asked you that, you seemed to agree that it was his belief, but your argument is that maybe he was wrong about that and it was some type of placebo affect that though he believed that to be the case, it may not have been the case. Harder hands are harder hands. Harder hands cause more damage than normal hands. I still think this is very obvious.


So then you agree to the debate? I have no problem starting the thread, but as you know, this will take some time to play out. We first need to agree on the 3 neutral judges. Before I make the thread, I need to know that you agree to the process.

[The Old LefHook]

What's the contention then--that chemists forgot the formula for this tape? Or is there supposed to still be some around for sale? Was it merely a brand of tape available in Dempsey's era? Bicycle tape sounds like useful stuff. They should still be making it.