How would dempsey do against todays Heavyweights?

[travestyny]

You are not accepting this Travesty, I understand your point, I disagree. You think that people knowing Dempsey used a type of wrap that is essentially a type of material that PERHAPS gets hard when on the skin, means that because enough people say the wrap caused something it must be true.

I still want to know the answer to one question:


What possible reason can you give for McCoy leaving the bicycle tape only across his knuckles? Just please answer that, because you completely ducked it.

Why would he leave only the strips across his knuckles if not because of the extra damage it would do?

[Anthony342]

Dempsey would do quite well in any era, hence the term "all-time great". As long as he understands the whole neutral corner rule, he at least gives them a run for their money and even beats at least a few. If he lands on Wlad's chin, which has been suspect at times, he can get an early stoppage. But with Stewart still in Wlad's corner, he could protect his chin and win a UD by jab and hold or Dempsey wins by DQ from excessive holding or Dempsey TKO in 3. He'd bulk up as much as he had to and give Wilder and Joshua plenty of competition.

[Dr.Cool]

I guess he would have a punchers chance, but Dempsey is a light heavyweight. No light heavy weight can beat guys who are 6'6, 225-250 lbs., with power, and a solid jab. As great as Dempsey was, he entered the ring weighing around 185 for most of his fights. That is size of RJJ, older B-Hop, Kov, Ward, Stevenson. Those guys are all much smaller than the modern heavyweights. If Dempsey was fighting today, he would not fight at hw. Probably not even cruiserweight. If Dempsey were fighting today, we would be comparing him to the all time best light heavyweights, not the all time best heavyweights.

[Dr.Cool]

Dempsey would do quite well in any era, hence the term "all-time great". As long as he understands the whole neutral corner rule, he at least gives them a run for their money and even beats at least a few. If he lands on Wlad's chin, which has been suspect at times, he can get an early stoppage. But with Stewart still in Wlad's corner, he could protect his chin and win a UD by jab and hold or Dempsey wins by DQ from excessive holding or Dempsey TKO in 3. He'd bulk up as much as he had to and give Wilder and Joshua plenty of competition.

I don't care how much he bulked up. The guy could put on 15 pounds and he would still give up five inches in height, five inches in reach, and 50 lbs. to Joshua. Dempsey was literally the size of today's light heavyweights. Yea, Adonis Stevenson could land a clean shot and ko Wilder or AJ or a Wlad, but 9 times out of 10 he is going to lose. This isn't the first UFC where little Royce Gracie can submit big idiots, this is 6'6, 250 pound, professional fighters with agility, speed, power, and skill. No way does some one about Andre Wards size come in and ko these guys. It is absurd.

[billeau2]

I've said over and over it's like bicycle tape.

Do you want proof that Dempsey was well aware of bicycle tape, because I just found proof.

Jack Dempsey's words:


He used it to make handles for a jumprope.


I've found articles from the 1910's about this tape and after.

I've found Dempsey himself saying that he wrapped his hands in a black tape.

I've found Kid McCoy leaving it across only his knuckles. One of the biggest cheats ever.

I've found the guy who wrapped both McCoy's hands with it and Dempsey's hands with it saying that it hardens and causes "unusual punishment."

Look at this quotation:



That's from Kearns who claimed Dempsey used plaster...and that was debunked, yes!!!!

But we have so much evidence that he used something similar to, if not, bicycle tape!

What do you think the whole "turn your head" part is all about if this was just meaningless? What about the "got away with anything" part?????


The people who were around at this time, speaking at this time, have told you from the grave about this over and over and over...and you just dismiss their word based on absolutely nothing.


Come on dude. This is as transparent as saran wrap.

I want you to look up the 1908 Sear's Catalogue. There you will find "Bicycle Tape." Indeed the product does exist.... Read what happens with it... According to the description it is designed specifically "Not to dry out" (Sears Catalogue Bicycle section). Now, even if Sears was wrong...and this tape in fact dries, these tapes generally need a concentrated heat source, like fire, to dry properly, I know this from using these tire products as a kid...in fact they verge on requiring a physical reaction.

Now with that in mind, unless there is a way for a very light coating, vis a vis a tape, can...through the gloves, cause major changes to the amount of hardness in a man's blows, I don't care how many people make a claim.

I suggest we take this discussion to a thread on "claims" both ordinary that make sense, and extra-ordinary, like for a substance that seems to defy the laws of physics, which, the major distributer of goods says "is designed NOT to dry out" which would MAKE MORE SENSE, considering the purpose of the tape... Think about it, you would in deed want the tape to stay flexible for a tire... And the adhesive used at that time was rubber cement.

So let me guess this trainer was a master chemist who concocted means of making this tape harden? Does that sound logical to you Travesty? I am trying to pounce lightly bro : But think...

Travesty you won't admit these points, I don't expect you to lol but think about them a moment lol. Look at the catalogue it should be on line. Think about what was around back then and think about a glove, wrapping material, the ability of a material to go through that and cut...

[travestyny]

I want you to look up the 1908 Sear's Catalogue. There you will find "Bicycle Tape." Indeed the product does exist.... Read what happens with it... According to the description it is designed specifically "Not to dry out" (Sears Catalogue Bicycle section). Now, even if Sears was wrong...and this tape in fact dries, these tapes generally need a concentrated heat source, like fire, to dry properly, I know this from using these tire products as a kid...in fact they verge on requiring a physical reaction.

Now with that in mind, unless there is a way for a very light coating, vis a vis a tape, can...through the gloves, cause major changes to the amount of hardness in a man's blows, I don't care how many people make a claim.

I suggest we take this discussion to a thread on "claims" both ordinary that make sense, and extra-ordinary, like for a substance that seems to defy the laws of physics, which, the major distributer of goods says "is designed NOT to dry out" which would MAKE MORE SENSE, considering the purpose of the tape... Think about it, you would in deed want the tape to stay flexible for a tire... And the adhesive used at that time was rubber cement.

So let me guess this trainer was a master chemist who concocted means of making this tape harden? Does that sound logical to you Travesty? I am trying to pounce lightly bro : But think...

Travesty you won't admit these points, I don't expect you to lol but think about them a moment lol. Look at the catalogue it should be on line. Think about what was around back then and think about a glove, wrapping material, the ability of a material to go through that and cut...

Sure. I’ll look at the catalogue as soon as you answer my question that I’ve asked you twice now and got no answer.

So here’s a third try.

Why would Kid McCoy voluntarily take off all the tape except the strips around his knuckles?

Seems you don’t want to answer for some reason. Let’s see what logically makes sense.

[billeau2]

I still want to know the answer to one question:


What possible reason can you give for McCoy leaving the bicycle tape only across his knuckles? Just please answer that, because you completely ducked it.

Why would he leave only the strips across his knuckles if not because of the extra damage it would do?

Sure maybe he thought he had liquid iron on his hands. people also used to think that leeches cured diseases and but for the grace of God and the fact that Leeches are actually somewhat clean, we would have had even more healthy people dropping dead of blood loss.

I have not ducked anything, I just do not see why it is important why Kid McCoy did something in this case.

You are trying to create a slippery slope, let me save you the trouble: The trainer no doubt thought he had a way that worked for his fighters. Lets even say the fighters were aware of these methods...

Well regardless we come to a point where the claim that this adhesive substance caused major damage is baseless. You can have everything up until that point. Eye witness accounts are great, they tend to correlate at times, and can be wonderful. But when we look at extraordinary claims, we have to be careful. These accounts are also unreliable.

The fact is, as others have said, there is not magic tape. There is plenty of information on tire tape and it is designed to keep soft, like a tire, and not harden. There is adhesives used that dri, but these could never create a cement like blow...

I think this discussion is best when we consider the nature of claims and truth, it is a subject I hold dear and applies to a lot of things that are opening up for us...there is research in the paranormal, on space phenomena where claims have to be carefully evaluated because there are extraordinary things that happen! We just have to make sure we don't blacken the waters with things that defy common sense.

[travestyny]

Sure maybe he thought he had liquid iron on his hands. people also used to think that leeches cured diseases and but for the grace of God and the fact that Leeches are actually somewhat clean, we would have had even more healthy people dropping dead of blood loss.

I have not ducked anything, I just do not see why it is important why Kid McCoy did something in this case.

You are trying to create a slippery slope, let me save you the trouble: The trainer no doubt thought he had a way that worked for his fighters. Lets even say the fighters were aware of these methods...

Well regardless we come to a point where the claim that this adhesive substance caused major damage is baseless. You can have everything up until that point. Eye witness accounts are great, they tend to correlate at times, and can be wonderful. But when we look at extraordinary claims, we have to be careful. These accounts are also unreliable.

The fact is, as others have said, there is not magic tape. There is plenty of information on tire tape and it is designed to keep soft, like a tire, and not harden. There is adhesives used that dri, but these could never create a cement like blow...

I think this discussion is best when we consider the nature of claims and truth, it is a subject I hold dear and applies to a lot of things that are opening up for us...there is research in the paranormal, on space phenomena where claims have to be carefully evaluated because there are extraordinary things that happen! We just have to make sure we don't blacken the waters with things that defy common sense.

What defies common sense to me is you arguing against this tape hardening when the people directly involved in using it say it hardened.

What also defies common sense is you claiming that it was all in thier mind that it did extra damage. You base that on.... absolutely nothing.

Meanwhile I show quotations from Kearns alluding to it causing excess damage, DeForest who explicitly says the tape he used caused “unusual punishment,” McCoy leaving strips of it over his knuckles. And that’s all just a coincidence to you? That simply makes no sense.

Boxing writers, award winning journalists, all have vouched for this being the likely scenario as to what happened in this fight. I have Carpentier asking that the tape be REMOVED. I have evidence that the tape was PROHIBITED for the Tunney fights.


All of that is just a coincidence huh? That’s a whole lot of evidence seeming to point to you being wrong, don’t you think?

Basically, your answer to this is that it was all in everyone’s mind what this tape did. They all believed it caused excess damage though it really didn’t. The magic was not about hardening. It was about fooling people into thinking it allowed an advantage. A placebo of sorts. All I can do is smh at that.

[GhostofDempsey]

Travesty will accuse people of ducking a question even after it has been answered, when it isn't the answer he wants to hear. He derails and hijacks threads all the time. He does this on every thread, about every topic he argues in, which is many. Dempsey, Mayweather, whites on welfare...he'll run in circles regurgitating the same nonsense. He'll keep it polite until he knows you aren't going to come around to his way to thinking, and then the passive-aggressive attacks come out and the insults. Then there are these odd challenges he throws down, as if there were some sort of trophy to win. Very odd behavior which follows a very predictable pattern.

If we were to get back on topic, it's safe to say Dempsey would have been competitive with modern era HWs. Win some, lose some. It's very difficult to compare fighters of different eras, but from what he know and from what I have seen and researched, he would likely be a CW today and probably one of the best CW's of all time alongside Holyfield. There is also enough to suggest modern day Dempsey may also have been an MMA fighter. He wrote a book on self-defense and taught it in the Coast Guard. He studied different forms of martial arts after his boxing career.

One thing is for certain, whether you are a fan or not, he was one of the most important figures in the sport boxing. Launched it into the mainstream, broke gate records and his popularity was equal to Babe Ruth at the time. He paved the way for future champions like Louis, Robinson, Marciano, Ali, etc. He was a polarizing figure and cultural icon. As a man he came a long way from his rough and tumble youth. He matured into a humble man who went on to serve his country honorably when he didn't really have to, and spoke admirably about his former opponents. Much like Joe Louis, he was a modest man who extended respect and professional courtesy to other fighters, unlike many modern day "best evers". Joe Louis himself called Dempsey the greatest heavyweight in history. Maybe he was just being kind as Joe often was, it still serves as a ringing endorsement for Dempsey's greatness, importance and impact he had on the great sport of boxing.

[billeau2]

What defies common sense to me is you arguing against this tape hardening when the people directly involved in using it say it hardened.

What also defies common sense is you claiming that it was all in thier mind that it did extra damage. You base that on.... absolutely nothing.

Meanwhile I show quotations from Kearns alluding to it causing excess damage, DeForest who explicitly says the tape he used caused “unusual punishment,” McCoy leaving strips of it over his knuckles. And that’s all just a coincidence to you? That simply makes no sense.

Boxing writers, award winning journalists, all have vouched for this being the likely scenario as to what happened in this fight. I have Carpentier asking that the tape be REMOVED. I have evidence that the tape was PROHIBITED for the Tunney fights.


All of that is just a coincidence huh? That’s a whole lot of evidence seeming to point to you being wrong, don’t you think?

Basically, your answer to this is that it was all in everyone’s mind what this tape did. They all believed it caused excess damage though it really didn’t. The magic was not about hardening. It was about fooling people into thinking it allowed an advantage. A placebo of sorts. All I can do is smh at that.

see now you are putting words in my mouth... I explained exactly what my opinion is based upon. Tapes don't harden, therefore there has to be some other explanation. Show me a tape that hardens... If everyone says jump off the roof, that makes it the right thing to do?

I never claimed it was in anybody's mind. I did perhaps intimate that there might be other things at work... it is why I thought you were initially referring to an actual "hard object" in the gloves and not the magic tape. People are very easy to fool regarding perception...

What exactly is "extra damage" do you see how ridiculous these ideas you pull up are? You don't listen to alternative points of view at times... Dempsey was a very hard puncher. how would anyone be able to pick the parts of his punches where the magic tape did the damage...oh let me guess they would compare the profile to Kid McCoy, they went in, photographed the opponent and compared the two types of skin abrasions right? You see how ridiculous you are being? these men had certain things they did and uncategorically made assumptions... MAYBE they were right... Then we should have a substance that works that way.

KeARNS was a lair, a fraud, a freakin criminal you idiot! lol. he would have incriminated his mom for a few nickels to pick up...Dempsey had to work with him for a while....JESUS mother of Mary you can be thick lol. And how the hell would DEForest know that a tape causes damage? Is is a solid object? I he a chemical engineer? who took bike tape and made a new element out of it? And wait wait.....heres the star witness, bring him in from the drunk tank....Kid MCcoy! The judge says: Mr MCcoy you are here for drinking!" the kid says "Lets get strrrted judge."

Do you know anything about McCoy junior? bet you did not know that he was cited in one of the first texts written about professional prize fighting, I have a copy of it. We are told that his Corkscrew punch, as demonstrated at the gymnasium in England for the trainer who wrote the book....cuts the skin with the hand movement....BECAUSE THE AUTHOR ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED KID MCCOY HITTING HIM WITH NO TAPE TO SPEAK OF> So apparently Kid MCcoy DID NOT NEED THE TAPE TO CUT THE SKIN WITH HIS PUNCH. Want the source material? He actually almost broke the author's tooth as well. Hie corkscrew punch had a cutting effect, tape or no tape.

Boxing writers ans others have all vouched that this was the likely scenerio (your words regarding the tape). yes they have, and upon closer inspection it appears they may be mistaken. Once we look at what the evidence is regarding this magic substance and some of the history. Likely is a modifier... it is also highly unlikely the earth moves with every step we take, but that is exactly what Neuton's law of action reaction states...you dig!?

But then you really do me in I guess...Because Carpenteir checked the gloves!!!! Yup, there is a source to hang one's hat upon... Don't even try to explain that one lol. Please spare me lol.

I tried to be nice but you couldn't leave well enough alone and you got the claws... the tape known as Bike tape is for sale in the Sear's catalogue and it is designed to stay soft...you hear me Travesty!!?? Stay soft, so it acts as part of the tire.

Your argument is akin to the medieval philosophers arguing about how many angels are on the head of a pin... One day it was discovered that nobody had actually seen any angels on the head of a pin... Magic Tapes that get as hard as brick, because MCcoy used it! never mind we can't find it...people are talking about it so it must exist huh?

Look I love ya like a little brother but your straining my credability with nonsense now. Find me that tape and we can talk...and explain to me how a thin band of even metal can work through hand coverings and gloves to add such power to a punch.