How would dempsey do against todays Heavyweights?

[billeau2]

I don't understand how it is that someone describes this tape as making your hands hard as rocks, another person says it's like having iron on your knuckles, another says the tape would cause "unusual damage," and you're saying that even if this were true, it wouldn't be the cause of excessive damage than if it weren't there.

That simply makes no sense.

What did Billy collins say to his father in between rounds?



GhostofDempsey claims it was no worse than how Berto looked and a few other boxers.




The lengths that GhostofDempsey will go to for this to go away is laughable.

Its just not specific enough and if you thought about it objectively you would be skeptical as well of a tape that makes your hands iron...thats the best I can put it my friend...notice Im not saying its wrong to be skeptical in either case, actually its what one should do.

[billeau2]

Sorry, I missed this. I didn't notice the multiple responses.

What you are still ignoring is that Kid McCoy clearly left the strip across his knuckles for an advantage.

This is Kid McCoy we are talking about. One of the biggest "cheaters" in the history of the sport, from what I can tell. I'm putting cheaters in quotations because I would imagine that some of the things he did wasn't considered strictly speaking illegal because of the lax regulations.

I don't know how much evidence can make this any more clearer for you guys. What do you think Kid McCoy was up to with that tape...the same tape that Dempsey used. Here's a bit about Kid McCoy.




So this guy, Kid McCoy, used the same exact tape as Dempsey. This tape that apparently was similar to bicycle tape. This tape that was said to harden when heated and would cause "unusual damage."

So you think this tape didn't give any advantage though the people involved said it did, and one of the biggest cheaters in the history of the sport used it.

Highly unlikely that you are right about this!

Thats a lot of tape properties. I guess unusual damage could cover a lot of sins.

[travestyny]

Thats a lot of tape properties. I guess unusual damage could cover a lot of sins.

You are blatantly ignoring the point.

In the story that was provided by Battling Nelson, why do you think McCoy left the strips of tape around his knuckles?

If you can answer that objectively, I think we would get somewhere. What do you think?

[travestyny]

Its just not specific enough and if you thought about it objectively you would be skeptical as well of a tape that makes your hands iron...thats the best I can put it my friend...notice Im not saying its wrong to be skeptical in either case, actually its what one should do.

Dude, I think you are taking the words very, very literally. If one person said the tape made his hands like rock, and another said it made his hands like iron...where does that leave us?

The tape made his hands much much harder than normal. You say I'm not being objective. What is not objective about believing that a tape that makes your hands much harder than normal would cause more damage in a boxing match....? I believe that you aren't being objective by thinking much harder hands wouldn't do any excess damage. That makes absolutely no sense.

Anthony asked an interesting question below.

And if Dempsey could get loaded gloves or wraps, I imagine he would've been able to win at least one of those fights against Tunney.

The only thing I could respond at the time is that we weren't sure that Dempsey used the tape against Tunney. Well after some research....here it is:

A provocative article by widely syndicated sportswriter Grantland Rice was more fodder for the notion that Tunney was a live underdog. Rice noted that Depsey had never had his hands wrapped by anyone but Kearns since graduating from the tank towns. It was Doc's custom to wrap Dempsey's hands with several yards of hard black bicycle tape over a thick cushion of gauze and cotton. For this bout, the fighters were required to enter the ring bare-fisted and their hands would be dressed with inspectors looking on. Bicycle tape was prohibited, forcing Dempsey to fight with far less bandaging than was his custom.

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=...20tape&f=false

But Billeau, it seems that no matter what information I pass along, and I've been passing along a whole lot that I think would make any reasonable person believe this, there seems to be still a leaning toward disbelief. Would it convince you more if I found proof directly from Dempsey that he was familiar with bicycle tape? I've been looking around.

[billeau2]

You are blatantly ignoring the point.

In the story that was provided by Battling Nelson, why do you think McCoy left the strips of tape around his knuckles?

If you can answer that objectively, I think we would get somewhere. What do you think?

I think you have a set way you think about this issue, I don't agree with certain suppositions you agree with, thats not what I think thats a fact.

[travestyny]

I think you have a set way you think about this issue, I don't agree with certain suppositions you agree with, thats not what I think thats a fact.

But Billeau, you didn't even answer the question that was posed. I think that's a fair question.

[billeau2]

Dude, I think you are taking the words very, very literally. If one person said the tape made his hands like rock, and another said it made his hands like iron...where does that leave us?

The tape made his hands much much harder than normal. You say I'm not being objective. What is not objective about believing that a tape that makes your hands much harder than normal would cause more damage in a boxing match....? I believe that you aren't being objective by thinking much harder hands wouldn't do any excess damage. That makes absolutely no sense.

Anthony asked an interesting question below.



The only thing I could respond at the time is that we weren't sure that Dempsey used the tape against Tunney. Well after some research....here it is:



But Billeau, it seems that no matter what information I pass along, and I've been passing along a whole lot that I think would make any reasonable person believe this, there seems to be still a leaning toward disbelief. Would it convince you more if I found proof directly from Dempsey that he was familiar with bicycle tape? I've been looking around.

Dempsey fought brilliantly against Tunney, including a long count in the second fight..Tunney also fought brilliantly, there was no marked "lack" in either fighter, watch the fights.

You take stock in people making a definite connection between the wraps and performance, I am skeptical, what you call a lack of understanding is a difference of standards of proof. People trying to describe a wrapping and its effects is a big grey area...

You are not accepting this Travesty, I understand your point, I disagree. You think that people knowing Dempsey used a type of wrap that is essentially a type of material that PERHAPS gets hard when on the skin, means that because enough people say the wrap caused something it must be true.

As has been pointed out, the idea that some thin, somewhat perceptable, substance that is put on the skin quickly as a part is pulled off, and makes a man's hands due damage is suspect at best.

I don't buy it. It might, it might not...you put cement in a glove that causes problems, its hard and perceptable. I know of no thin sheathing material that hardens into metal like density... As Judge Judy is fond of saying: "If it doesn't make sense it probably is not true."

Take a good look at the Sear's catalogue which was encyclopediac in its contents, including adhesives used by farm boys, city boys, and everything in between (there were no suberbs back then) and....you will find no adhesives used for bike tires that can suddenly with a bit of water become rock hard!

if people say pink poka dotted elephants caused them to do something, I don't believe it because.... Show me an adhesive today even that can become that hard that fast and be applied to the hands and will stay on...

The way guys could cheat was to put something like brass knuckles on...something that Dempsey has also been accused of using...

Heres a novel hypothesis for you: Dempsey hit real good see (in James Cagney tone) and and...when it could not be explained? well...being he associated with the likes of Kearns, he must have had some help see? because even the great Sullivan, and Johnson, did not generate the pure punching power of Dempsey and people had not seen it before.

Think about that angle as well...The Tunney proves the point, Tunney was cut and bloodied from pillar to post when he fought Grebb. But even Grebb to my knowledge could not knock him down. Dempsey was able! I'm pouncing lightly Travesty but sooner or later you will understand that this issue is not as credible and black and white as you seem to think. Find that adhesive for starters.

[OctoberRed]

You are blatantly ignoring the point.

In the story that was provided by Battling Nelson, why do you think McCoy left the strips of tape around his knuckles?

If you can answer that objectively, I think we would get somewhere. What do you think?

Personally taking everything into account, I actually lean a bit more with that on an objective level.

[travestyny]

Dempsey fought brilliantly against Tunney, including a long count in the second fight..Tunney also fought brilliantly, there was no marked "lack" in either fighter, watch the fights.

You take stock in people making a definite connection between the wraps and performance, I am skeptical, what you call a lack of understanding is a difference of standards of proof. People trying to describe a wrapping and its effects is a big grey area...

You are not accepting this Travesty, I understand your point, I disagree. You think that people knowing Dempsey used a type of wrap that is essentially a type of material that PERHAPS gets hard when on the skin, means that because enough people say the wrap caused something it must be true.

As has been pointed out, the idea that some thin, somewhat perceptable, substance that is put on the skin quickly as a part is pulled off, and makes a man's hands due damage is suspect at best.

I don't buy it. It might, it might not...you put cement in a glove that causes problems, its hard and perceptable. I know of no thin sheathing material that hardens into metal like density... As Judge Judy is fond of saying: "If it doesn't make sense it probably is not true."

Take a good look at the Sear's catalogue which was encyclopediac in its contents, including adhesives used by farm boys, city boys, and everything in between (there were no suberbs back then) and....you will find no adhesives used for bike tires that can suddenly with a bit of water become rock hard!

if people say pink poka dotted elephants caused them to do something, I don't believe it because.... Show me an adhesive today even that can become that hard that fast and be applied to the hands and will stay on...

The way guys could cheat was to put something like brass knuckles on...something that Dempsey has also been accused of using...

Heres a novel hypothesis for you: Dempsey hit real good see (in James Cagney tone) and and...when it could not be explained? well...being he associated with the likes of Kearns, he must have had some help see? because even the great Sullivan, and Johnson, did not generate the pure punching power of Dempsey and people had not seen it before.

Think about that angle as well...The Tunney proves the point, Tunney was cut and bloodied from pillar to post when he fought Grebb. But even Grebb to my knowledge could not knock him down. Dempsey was able! I'm pouncing lightly Travesty but sooner or later you will understand that this issue is not as credible and black and white as you seem to think. Find that adhesive for starters.

I've said over and over it's like bicycle tape.

Do you want proof that Dempsey was well aware of bicycle tape, because I just found proof.

Jack Dempsey's words:

ROPE-SKIPPING develops stamina, coordination and leg-spring.
At a sports-goods store you can buy a skipping rope (not one of those toy ropes that kids use). Or, you can make a rope by soaking a piece of clothesline overnight in a can of light lubricating oil. Hang up the rope and let it dry out for a day. Then, fold the ends of the rope back and tape them into "handles" with bicycle tape. The skipping rope should be fairly heavy but not too thick. That's why you give it the oil treatment.

He used it to make handles for a jumprope.


I've found articles from the 1910's about this tape and after.

I've found Dempsey himself saying that he wrapped his hands in a black tape.

I've found Kid McCoy leaving it across only his knuckles. One of the biggest cheats ever.

I've found the guy who wrapped both McCoy's hands with it and Dempsey's hands with it saying that it hardens and causes "unusual punishment."

Look at this quotation:

“In those times you got away with everything possible. Turn your head, or let the other guy turn his, and knuckles were wrapped in heavy black bicycle tape or the thick lead foil in which bulk tea was packaged.
https://thecruelestsport.com/2015/06...willard-fight/

That's from Kearns who claimed Dempsey used plaster...and that was debunked, yes!!!!

But we have so much evidence that he used something similar to, if not, bicycle tape!

What do you think the whole "turn your head" part is all about if this was just meaningless? What about the "got away with anything" part?????


The people who were around at this time, speaking at this time, have told you from the grave about this over and over and over...and you just dismiss their word based on absolutely nothing.


Come on dude. This is as transparent as saran wrap.

[travestyny]

Personally taking everything into account, I actually lean a bit more with that on an objective level.

I'm not so sure why it is so hard for these guys to accept the evidence that he used this particular kind of tape.

The man who wrapped his hands openly admit to it. I think they are trying to say I'm attacking Dempsey. I'm not. I'm just pointing out that he used it and it did indeed make a difference. The proof seems clear. I'm not saying we should strip him of every accolade. It is what it is. People just need to be real about it.