Joe Frazier vs. Evander Holyfield

[QueensburyRules]

did you see how frazier handled ali in the first fight? is holyfield better than ali, definetely not, even the ali that fought frazier would embarrass holyfield, so frazier stops him in 8.

- -Ouch, U da mean one!

[OctoberRed]

did you see how frazier handled ali in the first fight? is holyfield better than ali, definetely not, even the ali that fought frazier would embarrass holyfield, so frazier stops him in 8.

I could see that.

[The Old LefHook]

This is much more interesting as an English-speaking contest between two personable black boys as prone as Mrs. Malaprop to odd verbal constructions.

[QueensburyRules]

- -U been rioting again, Leffy?

With or without U teefs?

What prime Joe would do to Mr Field's defense might get boxing banned!

Of course I'm never for certain where Field's prime was given his odd career. Maybe someone can narrow to a specific fight where he was firing on all cylinders against a super strong opponent as Joe was.

[smeck]

Fiction being fiction, an author can do what he likes. Especially if he's not being paid and has no editor.

Coincidentally, I finished Joe's autobiography last night, where he wrote about his eye problem during the Thrilla in Manilla, being legally blind in one eye, having surgery, and fighting Foreman (the second time) with a contact lens that eventually got knocked loose. So a fake fight would have to be with both fighters in their prime, relatively free from scars, much less serious damage.

Joe's co-author Phil Berger seemed to be in love with the word SCAMBOOGAH. I know Joe used it once or twice, but it wasn't a catch-phrase he used. In the book I think there were few of Joe's opponents that Phil (as Joe) didn't call a SCAMBOOGAH, page after page. Anyway....

Since Joe's protege Bert Cooper nearly knocked out Evander, it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest the much harder-hitting Mr. Frazier would do the same. Joe may have stopped Quarry on cuts but Evander would not have withstood the kind of shots Ali did.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Fiction being fiction, an author can do what he likes. Especially if he's not being paid and has no editor.

Coincidentally, I finished Joe's autobiography last night, where he wrote about his eye problem during the Thrilla in Manilla, being legally blind in one eye, having surgery, and fighting Foreman (the second time) with a contact lens that eventually got knocked loose. So a fake fight would have to be with both fighters in their prime, relatively free from scars, much less serious damage.

Joe's co-author Phil Berger seemed to be in love with the word SCAMBOOGAH. I know Joe used it once or twice, but it wasn't a catch-phrase he used. In the book I think there were few of Joe's opponents that Phil (as Joe) didn't call a SCAMBOOGAH, page after page. Anyway....

Since Joe's protege Bert Cooper nearly knocked out Evander, it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest the much harder-hitting Mr. Frazier would do the same. Joe may have stopped Quarry on cuts but Evander would not have withstood the kind of shots Ali did.

Nice post.

Joe is a nightmare for Holyfield. The best Frazier might not stop the guy from the Lewis Rematch, but most other iterations probably don't last the full 15.


Which is funny because I doubt Frazier lasts long against Tyson. But I'd pick Holyfield from Lewis II to beat Tyson even at his best!

[Tatabanya]

Holyfield was good. He manhandled Mike in 96...the same wouldn't have been said in 86. Mike Tyson was a machine in the 80's, with Rooney kicking his butt into shape every day. Once he joined King's camp he became a sack-of-sand slugger.

Evander Holyfield himself said, "I was afraid of Mike when the bell rang. I expected him to come at me, but I was disappointed. He just stood there with his gloves up, flat-footed. I decided to throw a few jabs to see what his gameplan was, and I could tell this wasn't the Mike Tyson we all came to know. He just stood there..."He said this in post-fight interviews, he said it in one of Tyson's biographies, and he said it in his own story.

Green K for the underlined segments. Every now and then, someone observes reality without bias.

However, Holyfield's memory is bad. In the first fight, Tyson came out aggressively and almost knocked him down with the first punch he threw. Which, most probably, prompted Evander to start his smothering tactics right then and there.

[smeck]

I doubt Frazier lasts long against Tyson. But I'd pick Holyfield from Lewis II to beat Tyson even at his best!

Yep. Frazier wouldn't give Mike that much trouble. Frazier bangs a few to the body (Mike would have his gloves up at his chin if it's vintage Rooney Mike). Then Mike counters and "down goes Phrase-Uh!"

In Joe's book, he explained how he changed his strategy for Foreman II, and yes, he lasted longer. He also blamed his second loss on age and a loosened contact lens.

Holyfield looked great against some fighters, courageous against others, and a few made him seem like just a cruiserweight out of his depth -- sometimes with stamina problems as well. He did fight a variety of people, which is a real test of a champion.

Only Foreman really made Frazier look bad. Some dispute the two losses Joe had to Ali. BUT...Frazier didn't fight the level of opponents George and Muhammad did. He didn't fight Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Jimmy Young, Ken Norton...and Joe went the distance against Joe Bugner just as Ali did, and didn't exactly "smoke" Bonavena or Buster Mathis despite being considered so much more of a puncher than Ali.

[QueensburyRules]

Yep. Frazier wouldn't give Mike that much trouble. Frazier bangs a few to the body (Mike would have his gloves up at his chin if it's vintage Rooney Mike). Then Mike counters and "down goes Phrase-Uh!"

In Joe's book, he explained how he changed his strategy for Foreman II, and yes, he lasted longer. He also blamed his second loss on age and a loosened contact lens.

Holyfield looked great against some fighters, courageous against others, and a few made him seem like just a cruiserweight out of his depth -- sometimes with stamina problems as well. He did fight a variety of people, which is a real test of a champion.

Only Foreman really made Frazier look bad. Some dispute the two losses Joe had to Ali. BUT...Frazier didn't fight the level of opponents George and Muhammad did. He didn't fight Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Jimmy Young, Ken Norton...and Joe went the distance against Joe Bugner just as Ali did, and didn't exactly "smoke" Bonavena or Buster Mathis despite being considered so much more of a puncher than Ali.

- -BTFO the Undefeated Mathis being prepared to dethrone presuspension Ali.

Need to watch the fights!

[Rusty Tromboni]

Yep. Frazier wouldn't give Mike that much trouble. Frazier bangs a few to the body (Mike would have his gloves up at his chin if it's vintage Rooney Mike). Then Mike counters and "down goes Phrase-Uh!"

In Joe's book, he explained how he changed his strategy for Foreman II, and yes, he lasted longer. He also blamed his second loss on age and a loosened contact lens.

Holyfield looked great against some fighters, courageous against others, and a few made him seem like just a cruiserweight out of his depth -- sometimes with stamina problems as well. He did fight a variety of people, which is a real test of a champion.

Only Foreman really made Frazier look bad. Some dispute the two losses Joe had to Ali. BUT...Frazier didn't fight the level of opponents George and Muhammad did. He didn't fight Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Jimmy Young, Ken Norton...and Joe went the distance against Joe Bugner just as Ali did, and didn't exactly "smoke" Bonavena or Buster Mathis despite being considered so much more of a puncher than Ali.

Really great post.

I like how you said it.

Two points, though:

1) Frazier BATTERED Mathis and Chuvalo. His title reign was every bit as impressive as Ali's was pre-exile. It just doesn't draw the fanboys the same way.

He didn't fight Norton and Young because they were his sparring partners. He kicked their asses pretty bad, though, in the gym. Incidentally, both men also worked with Quarry, and HE really worked them over.

I am not too impressed by Shavers. Obviously he's a massive threat to anyone, and Joe in particular because he started soooo slow and Earnie was so good at exploiting even the smallest of opportunities. It's just hard to discredit Frazier for not fighting him, simply because Ali did.
Lyle, too was a great fighter, but one who also appears to have benefited from fighting legends in decline. If Quarry had the power to rock him, Joe should be able to put him away.

And I really don't hold the losses to Ali against Frazier. After the FOTC his performances really sagged. He rallied tremendously in the rematch with Foreman and in Manilla. He also picked up wins against Bugner, Quarry and Ellis. But for all intents and purposes he shouldn't have been fighting. I almost feel like the rematch is analogous to Duran-Leonard II, sans the quitting.

2) I agree completely regarding Holyfield. A lot of the magic of his career was that he could bounce back from really pitiful performances against subpar opposition to give some great fighters their toughest nights. But I also think that reflects most favorably not on Holyfield, but modern Boxing.

Holyfield fought a lot of fights over several decades. While it's impressive, he never had the schedule of a Greb or a Robinson, or a Charles. Or really most of the great fighters of yore.

For perspective: Marciano went 49-0 in just 8.5 years. He fought SEVEN championship fights in 3 years. Holyfield NEVER fought more than twice a year as a Heavyweight. And let's not pretend he would have ever had a meaningful Heavyweight career without the assistance of HGH and plentiful use of anabolic steroids.

I don't want to knock Holyfield too much. I just wanna take full view of the facts.

Green K for the underlined segments. Every now and then, someone observes reality without bias.

However, Holyfield's memory is bad. In the first fight, Tyson came out aggressively and almost knocked him down with the first punch he threw. Which, most probably, prompted Evander to start his smothering tactics right then and there.

Nice point!

This illustrates how even the guy who was there, on the biggestnight of his life, can get things wrong.

- -BTFO the Undefeated Mathis being prepared to dethrone presuspension Ali.

Need to watch the fights!

Well said. He also beat up Chuvalo every bit as impressively as George, and performed far better than Ali.