Joe Louis vs both Klitschkos

[them_apples]

That's true. There is also sharpness, timing and cleanness of connect as well.

Louis was a very sharp puncher at times, and tended to get great leverage on his hooks when fighting at a certain range (mid distance). He was also capable of throwing a pretty good overhand right that tended to land cleanly and solidly more often than not. Much of his power came from technique, accuracy and cleanness of connect, rather than brute force or extreme bodyweight distribution.

Vitali K on the other hand is a heavy puncher, who uses a big and solid frame to reign down thudding blows from all angles. His punches tend to have a cumulative effect on opponents, not really stunning them but battering them into submission. Both capable of getting a stoppage but aside from that they're not really comparable power types.

What makes Wladimir K such a chilling puncher is that he combines both types of power. He's sharp, quick and extremely accurate as well as having a substantial weight, height and strength advantage over his competition. Of course his combination punching ability outside of the one two is next to none, but then when you punch that hard you don't really need to do too much else.



What do you mean by "robotic" here? Their movement patterns? Their ability to adapt? If it's the latter then neither Wlad not Louis strike me as being particularly adept at adjusting to adverse circumstances, even though both have fought their way out of hairy situations in their time. As punchers, both men are/were extremely accurate and loose. Wlad most certainly isn't robotic in that sense.

If you're talking about mindset, then Vitali, ironically, may be the least robotic of all three. He's shown himself to be consistently good at adjusting and improvising in the ring and tends to throw very weird punches in fights that you'll never in a million years read of in any textbook. Stiff as a board however, and awkward looking, but he nonetheless makes it all work, and against some pretty smart and experienced boxers like JC Gomez.



It depends on your build I think. Some fighters have phenomenal chins but relatively normal builds. Others are built like fridges but have otherwise fairly average chins tucked in amongst all their muscle and fat. The former can take horrible clean punches straight to the chin without wilting, the latter can absorb brute force punishment to the cranium for round after round. Put them in with the 'wrong' type of puncher however, and their weakness tend to be exposed. Very few fighters in history could have withstood a Tyson combo though. That's just too much.

A large degree of Louis's success came from his combination punching too, but his approach to landing his shots differed quite a bit from Tyson's. A lot of opponents in Louis's day tended to in-fight a lot more as a matter of course. Even Buddy Baer, a large man who should have been using his height advantage to box Louis from the outside, chose to close distance and engage. To that end Louis was often able to get off his punches with full leverage without fear of getting smothered or having to adjust to changing distances. Neither of the Klits, Wlad especially, would allow him to do that, and he lacked the footspeed, head movement and raw explosive aggression of early Tyson to really make it work.

By Tyson's day many of the contenders were larger, taller men who were adept at outside fighting and weren't ashamed of clinching up to avoid having to engage in close. Nonetheless, Tyson's physical abilities allowed him to catch those fighters with big shots and either knock them off balance or stun them, leaving them prone to a barrage of follow up blows. Louis would not be able to emulate that on a consistent basis, and he would be eating a lot of hard shots as he tried to work his way in.



Gotta disagree there. Louis did not have solid punch resistance. He was extremely vulnerable to getting KD'ed or stunned, and was badly hurt by fighters not exactly famed for their power or accuracy. Very good recovery abilities, at least in his prime and against the rather crude and limited opposition he was facing, but that's a different kettle of fish entirely. I think it's very unlikely he'd be able to take the sort of shots Chisora was absorbing. Aside from the weight difference, the two men have a very different build, Chisora thick-set and squarish skulled with a short bull neck, Louis relatively lean and narrow shouldered with an average neck thickness and a largish head. Chisora has also never been down, and was able to withstand Helenius's punches for twelve rounds. I think he's got a proven chin.

you mentioned how some people have iron chins and they wouldn't even look the part. I agree Louis has an average chin. There are very slim light men with rock solid domes though, and recovery. Holyfield in his prime was 210 lbs. He was essentially, Joe Louis's size only he packed 10 lbs of muscle on.

I forget his name, but Lennox Lewis also went 10 (12?) rounds with that skinny 215 lb euro, who somehow was able to take his shots. Just some examples.

Skull size or durability doesn't always scale with the height and size of a man.

this is a very difficult fight for me to pick, because time and time again we have seen big men chopped down, either by determined smaller men or just skill in general. David Haye, a blown up cruiser (he's not very big regardless of the weight he lifts, his head and hands are small) was able to take flush shots from Wladmir, the bigger puncher of the 2, so it sort of leaves doubts in my mind if the K bros could really finish off a determined guy like Louis. Vitali was tagging an overweight gassed Lewis as well and couldn't seemlying do what a 6'1 Oliver Mccall could do.

[Spartacus Sully]

That's true. There is also sharpness, timing and cleanness of connect as well.

Louis was a very sharp puncher at times, and tended to get great leverage on his hooks when fighting at a certain range (mid distance). He was also capable of throwing a pretty good overhand right that tended to land cleanly and solidly more often than not. Much of his power came from technique, accuracy and cleanness of connect, rather than brute force or extreme bodyweight distribution.

Vitali K on the other hand is a heavy puncher, who uses a big and solid frame to reign down thudding blows from all angles. His punches tend to have a cumulative effect on opponents, not really stunning them but battering them into submission. Both capable of getting a stoppage but aside from that they're not really comparable power types.

What makes Wladimir K such a chilling puncher is that he combines both types of power. He's sharp, quick and extremely accurate as well as having a substantial weight, height and strength advantage over his competition. Of course his combination punching ability outside of the one two is next to none, but then when you punch that hard you don't really need to do too much else.



What do you mean by "robotic" here? Their movement patterns? Their ability to adapt? If it's the latter then neither Wlad not Louis strike me as being particularly adept at adjusting to adverse circumstances, even though both have fought their way out of hairy situations in their time. As punchers, both men are/were extremely accurate and loose. Wlad most certainly isn't robotic in that sense.

If you're talking about mindset, then Vitali, ironically, may be the least robotic of all three. He's shown himself to be consistently good at adjusting and improvising in the ring and tends to throw very weird punches in fights that you'll never in a million years read of in any textbook. Stiff as a board however, and awkward looking, but he nonetheless makes it all work, and against some pretty smart and experienced boxers like JC Gomez.



It depends on your build I think. Some fighters have phenomenal chins but relatively normal builds. Others are built like fridges but have otherwise fairly average chins tucked in amongst all their muscle and fat. The former can take horrible clean punches straight to the chin without wilting, the latter can absorb brute force punishment to the cranium for round after round. Put them in with the 'wrong' type of puncher however, and their weakness tend to be exposed. Very few fighters in history could have withstood a Tyson combo though. That's just too much.

A large degree of Louis's success came from his combination punching too, but his approach to landing his shots differed quite a bit from Tyson's. A lot of opponents in Louis's day tended to in-fight a lot more as a matter of course. Even Buddy Baer, a large man who should have been using his height advantage to box Louis from the outside, chose to close distance and engage. To that end Louis was often able to get off his punches with full leverage without fear of getting smothered or having to adjust to changing distances. Neither of the Klits, Wlad especially, would allow him to do that, and he lacked the footspeed, head movement and raw explosive aggression of early Tyson to really make it work.

By Tyson's day many of the contenders were larger, taller men who were adept at outside fighting and weren't ashamed of clinching up to avoid having to engage in close. Nonetheless, Tyson's physical abilities allowed him to catch those fighters with big shots and either knock them off balance or stun them, leaving them prone to a barrage of follow up blows. Louis would not be able to emulate that on a consistent basis, and he would be eating a lot of hard shots as he tried to work his way in.



Gotta disagree there. Louis did not have solid punch resistance. He was extremely vulnerable to getting KD'ed or stunned, and was badly hurt by fighters not exactly famed for their power or accuracy. Very good recovery abilities, at least in his prime and against the rather crude and limited opposition he was facing, but that's a different kettle of fish entirely. I think it's very unlikely he'd be able to take the sort of shots Chisora was absorbing. Aside from the weight difference, the two men have a very different build, Chisora thick-set and squarish skulled with a short bull neck, Louis relatively lean and narrow shouldered with an average neck thickness and a largish head. Chisora has also never been down, and was able to withstand Helenius's punches for twelve rounds. I think he's got a proven chin.

im not sure what apples means when he says robotic but i definatly see both klitschkos as being robotic in the sense of punching, like if you built a machine to swing a bat compared to a human swinging a bat. the klits are the machine swining the bat, while louis was the human swinging the bat.

[Joeyzagz]

Yes it would make a great difference, the last one especially.

The ref would make quite a difference too, since Wlad gets away with a lot of crap that an old school ref from Louis's era wouldn't have stood for, nor would the crowds.

Smaller gloves would increase both the Klits power (which in Wlad's case is rather scary) whilst larger gloves would decrease Louis's and possibly affect his punching style.

If glove size was such a big deal back then, theres no way Joe Louis could go 58-1 in that era(You yourself said he had poor punch resistance.)

Personally I think 1930s boxers would thrive off the sleek, ergonomic design of modern gloves. Efficient design offsets oz increase.

[Bigdaddy_Vh]

Than why is it Louis could do 15 rounds in a tough fight but both brother are sucking wind by the 5th in the few tough fights they've had?

Bc I don't think Louis would last 15. Look I'm not a fan of k2 at all but common sense tells you that 75 years of athletic/training/medical advancements AND the size differential would put Louis at a severe disadvantage. BUT if the fights took place in Louis' day he would certainly be the favorite.

[Spartacus Sully]

Bc I don't think Louis would last 15. Look I'm not a fan of k2 at all but common sense tells you that 75 years of athletic/training/medical advancements AND the size differential would put Louis at a severe disadvantage. BUT if the fights took place in Louis' day he would certainly be the favorite.

alot of the things boxers did in 1890 are being found to be some of the best things for boxing today.

if you look to other sports like track all you have to look at are the shoes to see there have been leaps and bounds in foot wear and track surface over the past 75 years.

jesse owens vs modern day


these are vast improvements in the equipment of the sport that we don't see in boxing, to think the advancements between louis's time and now are more then negligible in my opinion would be incorrect.

i mean like alis almost 50 years ago if 75 years is a such a difference surely 50 is too, so in the same sense youd almost have to give it to the klitsckos over ali as well?

[lazy]

Louis is too small. He wouldn't stand a chance against either Klitschko. He had flat feet and suspect defense. He's could beat punching bag types that stand right in front of him, but against classy boxers like the Klitschko's he'd get stopped in less than 5 rounds.

Now you are going to suggest Haye was better than Louis, remember Haye the cruiserweight Wlad was scared to be hit by. Size has little to do with it when these giants would not even hit Louis, but when Louis hit "too big" Wlad, Wlad would be smaller in an hortizontal sort of way.

[lazy]

Louis and Haye fight nothing alike. Haye is faster, more mobile and has better footwork. He seems naturally bigger too.

Besides, its moot anyways since Wlad thoroughly dominated Haye with ease.

Haye is faster? My advise is that next time you create an alt, create one with some knowledge of boxing.

[lazy]

Haye is faster in every way. Take your own advice. You're off to a good start with the name "lazy".

Lazy's a great name thank you.

I get it now you are just making humor posts,

Like "Haye is faster than Louis"

and this one you just made in the nsb,

Prime Nate Campbell would've beaten anyone at the top including Pacquiao, Duran and Henry Armstrong.

lol
Cheers mate this forum needs more humor I guess??!!??

[JAB5239]

Bc I don't think Louis would last 15. Look I'm not a fan of k2 at all but common sense tells you that 75 years of athletic/training/medical advancements AND the size differential would put Louis at a severe disadvantage. BUT if the fights took place in Louis' day he would certainly be the favorite.

My friend, you missed the point. If athletes have gotten so much better and are so far advanced today, than why hasn't their conditioning improved? Louis went 10 rounds or more 21 times in his career, 6 of those times he went 15. Heavyweights today, as a whole, throw less punches and gas out long before the final bell. If nutrition and training have come so far than why haven't we seen an improvement in stamina and work rate, especially given fight are now only 12 rounds?

[JAB5239]

Louis is too small. He wouldn't stand a chance against either Klitschko. He had flat feet and suspect defense. He's could beat punching bag types that stand right in front of him, but against classy boxers like the Klitschko's he'd get stopped in less than 5 rounds.

What was suspect about his defense?