Dempsey vs. Marciano

[Zmerai Khan]

Today in the hwt division we have very large low skilled fighters only conditioned to fight 12 rounds max. The entire sport has been so heavily diluted down the past 30 plus years with all the many multiple champions and 40 plus “contenders” per division. Easy to be a champion easy to be a contender.

That's fair. I think Fury is a pretty skilled Boxer, though. He's not the greatest athlete by any stretch of the imagination. But being that big will impose limitations.

Chris Byrd was no Willie Pep, but his advantage as one of the sport's better defensive boxers carried him a long way... even if ultimately he was neutralized when fighting against dinosaurs like Klitchko.

To your point, I dunno how Ali and Holmes wouldd handle Dempsey's era. A lot is made about them being able to recover from Shavers' punch. But against Dempsey they wouldn't get the space to recover.

[HOUDINI563]

My point is if Frazier could do so well vs Ali both Dempsey and Marciano, superior fighters to Joe, would do as well and probably better.

[Joe Beamish]

Style of fighting has nothing to do with race. Never has had anything to do with race.

Athletic ability does.

[HOUDINI563]

There is a significant disparity of opinion regarding that issue. However even if true that does not mean Joe Frazier specifically was a better fighter or athlete vs Dempsey or Marciano. He quite obviously was not. Further the ABILITY TO FIGHT is a skill that is irrespective of any racial bias. There may be many pro fighters at any given moment but only a small percentage are FIGHTERS. This would include inate abilities to continue fighting and not quit no matter what, will to win, toughness, courage, the ability to take punishment, the ability to land crushing blows, killer instinct.

[travestyny]

I'm sure the public wanted to see the fight. But that was almost more certainly motivated by their desire to see a giant Black man starched.

Stopped reading right there. Confirms that you are a moron. Don't quote me anymore.

[travestyny]

I'm sure the public wanted to see the fight. But that was almost more certainly motivated by their desire to see a giant Black man starched.

But by the way, are you sure of this?


Do you remember what the last black man that fought Dempsey did to him? Broke three of his ribs...and even Dempsey says he lost, though he got what some called a gift draw.

Maybe that public wanted Wills to break three more of those ribs, and maybe that's why Dempsey didn't want it. Just something for you to ponder

[Zmerai Khan]

My point is if Frazier could do so well vs Ali both Dempsey and Marciano, superior fighters to Joe, would do as well and probably better.

You definitely have a point.

IMO, Joe carried his size well and closed the distance better than Marciano. He was a lot like a one-handed Armstrong.

At parity, I'd be more inclined to pick Marciano and Dempsey. But I think Ali is too big to be the underdog in those match ups.

I do think Rocky is VERY hard to pit away. And Dempsey makes things miserable early in the fight - especially with no neutral corner.

[HOUDINI563]

Size is the last thing to be considered. A great crouching fighter will negate an opponents height and reach and make it work against them. Ali stated himself that Marciano was a better fighter than Frazier. An Ali vs Marciano or Dempsey bout is a very difficult matchup for Ali. These are the two greatest swarmers in hwt boxing history.

[Marchegiano]

Stopped reading right there. Confirms that you are a moron. Don't quote me anymore.

He just wants to talk at people. I'm not even sure why he responded to you.

[HOUDINI563]

Dempsey's main sparring partner was Big Bill Tate. Tate's record is incomplete, which is common for that era, but he fought the best black
fighters of the time and some of the better white fighters. He fought Sam Langford, and beat him twice officially and once via newspaper decision, he fought Joe Jeannette several times, he fought Gunboat Smith a couple times
and beat him at least once, Harry Wills he fought 5 or more times and won once on a DQ and had a draw. In the preliminary fights before Dempsey fought Billy Miske, Tate fought Langford and though the fight was declared a NC/ND the newspapers said Tate won on points.

While Dempsey was champion, he went on tour with the Sell-Floto Circus
Troupe and he and Tate would spar as part of their show. It was a popular exhibition till they arrived in the Louisiana Delta. Just sparring with a
black fighter was considered taboo in the deep South of the time, and regional newspapers blasted Dempsey for it.
Dempsey said, "More than anything else, I was surprised. I figured some of the people might have trouble with my voice and the way I bit off my words, but Hell, Tate was one of my guys." They kept the pressure on him day after day to quit sparring with Tate and
spar with only white men. Instead Dempsey quit the circus tour. He said that even though Tate worked for him, he thought of him as a buddy and liked to have him around.

The unfair criticism of Dempsey has it he himself decided not to fight black
fighters. He lived in a time when even sparring with a black man was enough to have dozens of newspapers attacking him. Dempsey had good reason to be wary of the power of the press. They had kept on him for not joining up to fight in World War I until he ended up in federal court fighting to stay out of prison. Few realize that Dempsey faced years in prison while heavyweight champion just because he didn't join the Army. It cost him all the money he'd made till that point, plus put him heavily in debt to people like Tex
Rickard, to defend himself.

The main promoter of Dempsey, Tex Rickard, considered the gate the most
important consideration of who the champion should fight, and produced the
first million dollar gate fights. Rickard had promoted during Jack Johnson's time, including Johnson's fight in Reno, Nevada with an old Jim Jeffries. It was his opinion, stated many times, that a black heavyweight champion wasn't worth anything as a draw. He had seen Johnson forced out of the country for
years, taking the heavyweight title with him, and focused not on the racism of it, but on the loss of revenue as a tragedy for boxing.

Even on the several occasions when Dempsey made public statements that he wanted to fight Harry Wills, Rickard worked in the background to make sure such a fight never happened.