Joe Louis vs Larry Holmes

[Mintcar923]

I'm really surprised at all the Holmes haters. Joe Louis was an all-time great and I love him but if you really think logically about it you'd see that Holmes would have a hell of a shot to win. I think they pretty much fought equal opposition. However, both of them had their own respective bum-of-the-month club which may be part of the reason they had so many successful defenses.

On the other hand they both had faced great fighters. Joe Louis had Conn, Schmeling, and Walcott. Holmes had Ali, Spinks, and Norton. Yes, Ali was past his prime but let's face it, he was still Muhammad Ali. Many people thought Holmes avenged the Spinks loss in the rematch but the judges did not see it that way. Louis had avenged his first defeat but yet there are those who thought Walcott had beaten him at one time. The Louis-Conn fight was one for the ages. Billy Conn completely outboxed Joe before getting too ****y and leaving himself vulnerable late in the fight.

I see Holmes winning. He had a slightly better/longer jab, better footwork, better chin, and more perhaps even more heart than Louis. Joe Louis always has a punchers chance but if Earnie Shavers couldn't take out a prime Larry Holmes, who could? I know Joe was the more popular champion but I gotta go with Larry Holmes by UD or late stoppage...

[Wild Blue Yonda]

I'm really surprised at all the Holmes haters. Joe Louis was an all-time great and I love him but if you really think logically about it you'd see that Holmes would have a hell of a shot to win. I think they pretty much fought equal opposition. However, both of them had their own respective bum-of-the-month club which may be part of the reason they had so many successful defenses.

On the other hand they both had faced great fighters. Joe Louis had Conn, Schmeling, and Walcott. Holmes had Ali, Spinks, and Norton. Yes, Ali was past his prime but let's face it, he was still Muhammad Ali. Many people thought Holmes avenged the Spinks loss in the rematch but the judges did not see it that way. Louis had avenged his first defeat but yet there are those who thought Walcott had beaten him at one time. The Louis-Conn fight was one for the ages. Billy Conn completely outboxed Joe before getting too ****y and leaving himself vulnerable late in the fight.

I see Holmes winning. He had a slightly better/longer jab, better footwork, better chin, and more perhaps even more heart than Louis. Joe Louis always has a punchers chance but if Earnie Shavers couldn't take out a prime Larry Holmes, who could? I know Joe was the more popular champion but I gotta go with Larry Holmes by UD or late stoppage...

He most assuredly wasn't still Ali. He was nothing, & the win is next to meaningless. Norton was past-it as well (though Holmes was injured, in fairness) & Spinks was a fraud above LHW. His management knew it, & bubble-wrapped him until he could be shifted into the big Tyson payday.

Two other things --- "...Billy Conn completely outboxed Joe before getting too ****y & leaving himself vulnerable late in the fight..."

Not true at all. In fact, one of the biggest, most lasting myths in Boxing history. Truly, one of the very biggest. The fight was plenty close --- close enough for Louis to still win on points going into the last three. It was a terrific contest, which Conn was winning, but this whole idea that he boxed Louis ****** isn't even an exaggeration, it's pure fantasy. Also, watch Conn in rounds eleven & twelve, & the the fateful thirteenth. He's in much more the same frame of mind, fighting much more the same style, than history is fond of recalling.

"...If Earnie Shavers couldn't take out a prime Larry Holmes, who could?"

I could not disagree with this sentiment any more strongly than I do. Shavers lost to nearly every quality fighter he ever met. Why? Because he was literally a walking right hand from hell, & that was it. Sloppy footwork, poor stamina (a key reason he couldn't finish Holmes off, in addition to Holmes' considerable powers of recovery), no serious left hand to speak of, shoddy defense, a shaky chin...Shavers is so far removed from being as dangerous as anyone, it isn't funny. Louis had more potency in nearly every punch. He was leagues above Shavers.

I will agree with you, though, that Holmes has an excellent shot to win this, & would never be disgraced. I do feel he gets taken out most likely, though.

[Miburo]

Harder than Louis-Ali to predict. I might favor Holmes by a slight margin, pretty pick-em fight.

[Canelo Phresh]

joe louis by mid round ko. combinations bust holmes up bad by the 8th.

[Mintcar923]

He most assuredly wasn't still Ali. He was nothing, & the win is next to meaningless. Norton was past-it as well (though Holmes was injured, in fairness) & Spinks was a fraud above LHW. His management knew it, & bubble-wrapped him until he could be shifted into the big Tyson payday.

Two other things --- "...Billy Conn completely outboxed Joe before getting too ****y & leaving himself vulnerable late in the fight..."

Not true at all. In fact, one of the biggest, most lasting myths in Boxing history. Truly, one of the very biggest. The fight was plenty close --- close enough for Louis to still win on points going into the last three. It was a terrific contest, which Conn was winning, but this whole idea that he boxed Louis ****** isn't even an exaggeration, it's pure fantasy. Also, watch Conn in rounds eleven & twelve, & the the fateful thirteenth. He's in much more the same frame of mind, fighting much more the same style, than history is fond of recalling.

"...If Earnie Shavers couldn't take out a prime Larry Holmes, who could?"

I could not disagree with this sentiment any more strongly than I do. Shavers lost to nearly every quality fighter he ever met. Why? Because he was literally a walking right hand from hell, & that was it. Sloppy footwork, poor stamina (a key reason he couldn't finish Holmes off, in addition to Holmes' considerable powers of recovery), no serious left hand to speak of, shoddy defense, a shaky chin...Shavers is so far removed from being as dangerous as anyone, it isn't funny. Louis had more potency in nearly every punch. He was leagues above Shavers.

I will agree with you, though, that Holmes has an excellent shot to win this, & would never be disgraced. I do feel he gets taken out most likely, though.

I feel as though I must respond to these opinions as to clear up what I had said in my previous post. You may be right about the Louis-Conn fight being close and Joe wasn't completely outboxed. I'm basically stating what I had heard as I din't witness the entire fight. But from the clips I had seen it sure looked as though Billy was dominating him until Joe caught up with him.

As far as my statement about Ali being past his prime but still Ali... I realize that the fight doesn't mean all that much but Muhammad Ali was still the fighter he was in the ring with. Yes, he was 38 years old I believe but the following fight he had against Berbick proved he was still somewhat formidable as Berbick was on top and there are those who actually though Ali had won the fight. He had shown flashes of his old skill and to completely disregard Holmes win over him would be very unjust. Larry completely neutralized him and gave him a thorough beating. Holmes himself would tell you that he wasn't all that proud over the win over him. But he will also tell you that he would win even over a prime Ali. A pretty bold statement to make! When a prime Mike Tyson had beaten a 38-year old Larry Holmes they had given him some credit. And if you recall after the Tyson-Holmes fight Mike had admitted he would not have stood a chance against a prime Larry Holmes.

As far as Earnie Shavers is concerned, by no means am I saying that he was a great fighter. I'm simply stating that many regard him as the greatest puncher ever including Muhammad Ali. I'm sure Larry deserves all the respect in the world for surviving his best punch! I also disagree with you as I feel Ken Norton was still very formidable when Norton-Holmes took place. That was an an amazing fight!!

[IronDanHamza]

Louis beats him without much bother.

A competitive round here and there.

[Greatest1942]

I feel as though I must respond to these opinions as to clear up what I had said in my previous post. You may be right about the Louis-Conn fight being close and Joe wasn't completely outboxed. I'm basically stating what I had heard as I din't witness the entire fight. But from the clips I had seen it sure looked as though Billy was dominating him until Joe caught up with him.

As far as my statement about Ali being past his prime but still Ali... I realize that the fight doesn't mean all that much but Muhammad Ali was still the fighter he was in the ring with. Yes, he was 38 years old I believe but the following fight he had against Berbick proved he was still somewhat formidable as Berbick was on top and there are those who actually though Ali had won the fight. He had shown flashes of his old skill and to completely disregard Holmes win over him would be very unjust. Larry completely neutralized him and gave him a thorough beating. Holmes himself would tell you that he wasn't all that proud over the win over him. But he will also tell you that he would win even over a prime Ali. A pretty bold statement to make! When a prime Mike Tyson had beaten a 38-year old Larry Holmes they had given him some credit. And if you recall after the Tyson-Holmes fight Mike had admitted he would not have stood a chance against a prime Larry Holmes.

As far as Earnie Shavers is concerned, by no means am I saying that he was a great fighter. I'm simply stating that many regard him as the greatest puncher ever including Muhammad Ali. I'm sure Larry deserves all the respect in the world for surviving his best punch! I also disagree with you as I feel Ken Norton was still very formidable when Norton-Holmes took place. That was an an amazing fight!!

"I also disagree with you as I feel Ken Norton was still very formidable when Norton-Holmes took place. That was an an amazing fight!!"

Not my argument but I wanted to have a say here. Norton was not in his prime when he faced Holmes. According to Norton he lost his desire for fighting after the third Ali fight. I don't care how good you are but once you loose interest, and the passion you are never the same. Lets face it though that fight was still competitive. And whilst Norton was still good he was past it. One year after the Holmes fight he lost to Shavers...then fought a draw with Scott LeDoux, in which he was knocked down twice in the 10th round.LeDoux retired with a record of 33-13-4 (21 knockouts). I am sure if the fight was a 12 rounder Norton would have been in trouble. He then beat Tex Cobb ( I am sure you wont count this as a great victory), and then got beat by Cooney in his last fight. Point being he did nothing to show he was the same force as before (atleast up to the third Al fight), and on the contrary struggled with guys he would have beat in his prime. Rest is your call.

Earnie Shavers hit Holmes with a great punch...I will how ever never call it the best punch. As good as Shavers was he never quite finished top class opponents with his power. He never was a great finisher against top class opposition. Ron Lyle escaped him too, after being seriously hurt.

I am not degrading Lyle, all I am saying is it doesn't take a Holmes to escape Shavers. Many did it. Just as an aside after the Holmes fight Shavers faced Bernardo Mercado who after being down in the third floored stopped Shavers in 8. See it doesn't take Holmes to come from being knocked down and beat Shavers. Shavers was good, he wasn't just a great finisher. Louis was.



In a historical sense Holmes never unified the title, never gave some rematches which he should have and did not fight good contenders for a long time. He emulated Ali but he was not an Ali as respect to speed. Here is something to ponder about in 20 title defenses and a fight career that extended well into his forties Holmes total record against top two opponents is 6-5 (4 KO). Louis is 20-3 (16 KO).Al is 18-3 11 KO.Holyfield is 9-6-2 (4 KO) .Mike Tyson is 7-3 (5 KO).Rocky Marciano is 9-0 (8 KO) .Lennox Lewis is 8-2-1 (7 KO). Doesn't quite stack up. I can easily say that just as some say Holmes is underrated I can say he is overrated too. (Now before any one picks me up on this, I have Holmes in my top 10).

I dont put much stock in what Holmes says after all if I do remember correctly didn't he say Marciano was not even fit to carry hist jock straps...He may be regretted it later...but he did say it. I don't confer so much greatness on Holmes. He might believe that he could beat a prime Ali...I don't. Ali at his prime was too good for Holmes. This statement doesn't carry much weight.

Actually Holmes record against top two is equal too Jack Sharkey, who is 6-5 too.

I don't hate Holmes, I do keep these in mind while ranking him.

Coming to the fight,

He had a great jab, but with Louis he will meet a jab almost as good, with a good parrying hand. Through out his career Holmes had difficulties against a good jabber. Be it Carl Williams or Witherspoon or Spinks. If he tries to fight inside he will be in some ****. Holmes was liable to get caught and hurt often. Witherspoon hurt him badly, Shavers too. If Louis has him in similar predicament it will be curtains.

My vote Louis wins by late TKO.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

Nice posts, the last two.

[Ascended]

Holmes is a bit overated IMO. but I have a hard time picking Louis in fights because he simply never fought anyone like Holmes or as good. Louis had next to 0 movement and his oponents never gave him a reason to learn how to do so.

Holmes is 6'4 with an 81 reach and probably the fastest HW jab to date. When Louis fought a shorter craftier guy like even Walcott, you can see the problems that occur when they don't just stand in front of him and **** away. Not saying the fight would be one sided, but I see Louis taking a lot of hard right hands coming in, probably losing a decision. Anything Louis lands I feel Holmes could weather, he had a good chin.

So back then you told the truth cause this is the truth what happened to your mind when did you become blind

[Ascended]

Why was joe picked here when he fought conn who would have won cause he easily outboxed joe easy and would had won had he not went toe to toe

So how is it joe beats a way more advanced Larry who wouldn't go toe to toe how does joe win he moved like a snail and was basic