Did Buster Douglas Really Beat Mike Tyson??

[smasher]

ron lyle was dead tired by the 5th round. holmes punches were much faster, straighter, than lyles.

We're talking about hurt Holmes in the 7th round vs. Shavers. Not fast and not straight....

[Heckler]

After reviewing the rumble in the jungle again i still believe Ali was a bit quicker then any version of Holmes. Round one, 3, 5 show this especially. However Holmes obviously had more 'snap' in his punches.

[smasher]

After reviewing the rumble in the jungle again i still believe Ali was a bit quicker then any version of Holmes. Round one, 3, 5 show this especially. However Holmes obviously had more 'snap' in his punches.

I wonder how much snap Larry would have on his punches if the guy facing him was Foreman with the same height and reach. In other words, there's a good chance Larry would have been focused more on quickness instead of taking the time to plant and get more leverage and follow through on his shots. Following through leaves a a fighter vulnerable to be caught coming in which increases the power of the shot you get hit with.

Comparing Ali's punching style vs Foreman against Holmes punching style vs Shavers is comparing apples and oranges.

[Yogi]

GO BACK AND LOOK AT HIS FIGHT AGAINST PAEZ. Those combos that he threw to knock the guy down both times were not slow punches. If you still watch that and think that he didn't have the speed, then I'd advise you to get your eyes examined.

I don't have the Paez fight and nor have I ever seen it, I don't believe. But even if I did see it I'd STRONGLY doubt that I'm suddening going to see some difference in Foreman's handspeed in that fight when compared to his other fights of the 70's, which I do have (Frazier x2, Ali, Norton, Lyle, Young, Chuvalo, Piralta, Kirkman...I think that's it, but even though I don't have them, I've also seen other fights of his from that decade like versus Roman, Pires, etc.).

To me Foreman was NOT a "quick" or "very fast" puncher in ANY of those fights of his from the 70's.

Christ, just because the guy has a bit of a blur to his punches, that doesn't automatically make them "very fast" as far as punching goes...Butterbean has that too when he punches and I'll be ****ed if I ever refer to him as a "quick" or "very fast" puncher, but hey...maybe you would if you're so impressed with Foreman's punching speed.

[Yogi]

The point I am trying to make is that a hurt Holmes even on wobbly legs attempts to plant and fire loaded power punches. Not a great trait to have in a fight against George Foreman. Ron Lyle ring a bell?

Maybe that was your intended point, but the way you worded it from the beginning was something along the lines of Holmes' first insticts were to punch and he didn't attempt to clinch or cover up...Something like that, and that's why I disagreed with you, because the fights from Shavers and Weaver show that that Holmes first instincts (and most prominant) were defensive and he did attempt to clinch, cover up, move, etc. in both of those fights.

Ron Lyle?

Hmm...Foreman hurts him in the second, and Lyle backs to the ropes to cover up. Foreman hurts & knocks him down in the fourth(after being knocked down himself), and Lyle again backs to the ropes & covers up before coming back some time later to knock Foreman down again in the late goings of the round.

I got to watch that fight again, but those are two moments from thast fight that are pretty clear in my mind.

[Yogi]

I wonder how much snap Larry would have on his punches if the guy facing him was Foreman with the same height and reach.

Why on earth would you need to wonder?

Just throw in the fight with Cooney and you'll have your answer, as you can then see how many times Holmes stepped in with the right hand (which he almost couldn't miss) against a dangerous guy with the same reach and even taller than him.

[FloydFanatic]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/fea...flashback/kod/
The eighth round opened with Douglas again getting the better of Tyson, but it closed with a sudden, classic Tyson right uppercut that dropped Douglas to the canvas with six seconds left. It was the only time that Douglas got careless, and it nearly cost him his eventual stunning upset. Worse, though, was referee Meyran's shabby handling of the count, which, if promoter Don King has his way, may serve to deprive Douglas of the crown that he rightfully deserves. At the moment Douglas's backside touched the surface of the ring, the knockdown timekeeper began his count. Instead of picking up that cadence, Meyran began his own count, two beats behind.
As generations of felled fighters have done before him, Douglas kept his attention fixed on the referee's hands. As Meyran signaled nine, Douglas rose, but the bell ended the round. If there was any doubt that Douglas was clearheaded and could have risen to his feet on the timekeeper's count, it had been erased right after the knockdown when Douglas pounded his left fist on the mat, in obvious annoyance at his own lapse.
Yet King, who saw his world tour coming to a screeching halt about three continents short of his grand plan, would later seize on the discrepancy in the counts as grounds to bully others into awarding Tyson a victory by knockout.
But King was not willing to allow his investment in the franchise called Mike Tyson to take the hit that inevitably comes from losing a title fight. King summoned officials from two of the major sanctioning bodies, the WBC and WBA, and representatives from the Japan Boxing Commission to a small room off the arena. Emerging two hours later, King called a press conference to announce that tapes of the bout clearly showed that "two knockouts took place, but the first knockout obliterates the second. Buster Douglas was knocked out, and the referee did not do his job and panicked. As the promoter of both fighters, I'm only seeking fair play."
Two hours after that declaration, King again summoned the press. This time, he brought along Meyran, who said, "I don't know why I start my count and make my mistake. Yes, he was down longer than 10 seconds." Also in attendance was the fallen champion. His swollen left eye hidden by dark glasses, he said, "I thought I knocked him out. I thought he was counted out."
Not surprisingly, given the sway he holds over the sport, King's transparent attempts to alter the obvious were persuasive enough for the WBC and WBA to announce that they would suspend recognition of the outcome until further review, which is expected to take place during this coming week. Even as Douglas relaxed in his hotel room with the WBC belt around his waist, the organization's president, Jose Sulaiman, was saying, "I'm very confused." Later, at the second press conference, he was no longer so confused. He said a rematch "was absolutely mandatory." But the damage is pretty much done. All King's men can't put Tyson together again.
Of course, if you want confusion, boxing is, once more, for you. For starters, there is the blabbering of governing bodies whose only apparent purpose is to collect sanctioning fees. Tyson had consolidated all three titles -- WBC, WBA and IBF -- on Aug. 1, 1987, but because the Japan Boxing Commission does not recognize the IBF, no one from that organization was represented in Tokyo. Yet the IBF did sanction the fight, and does not recognize the challenge to Douglas's victory. So at the very least, Douglas now holds the IBF title.

It's really unfair how tyson's belt was taken away from him although he clearly won the bout. If the referee counted right and claimed Tyson as the winner, Tyson would have realized that he almost could have been knocked out (which happened) and would have been more careful in the future. Tyson even claims that his career ended at the buster douglas fight. Maybe it led to his to fallout not only in the ring but outside of it as well.

this is true. tyson knocked him out b4 he was knocked out and it never should of happened. tyson would have beat douglas and then nobody would question his abilities like heart and then he would of fought holyfield and stopped him or won a decision. its probably not 2 late to change the winner if its brought up again and theres more evidence.

[NachoMan]

this is true. tyson knocked him out b4 he was knocked out and it never should of happened. tyson would have beat douglas and then nobody would question his abilities like heart and then he would of fought holyfield and stopped him or won a decision. its probably not 2 late to change the winner if its brought up again and theres more evidence.

This shows that you've never seen that fight. Buster got up in time to beat Mehran's count. That is all he had to do. If Mehran's would have started his count exactly when Buster hit the ground, Buster would have gotten up on time as well. Buster administered one of the worst beat downs ever in that fight. With the exception of taking that well-placed uppercut in the 8th round, he dominated Tyson from start to finish. Also, it should be obvious to everyone who has seen the fights that Tyson was going to lose to Evander whenever they fought. Evander was simply the better fighter.

[FloydFanatic]

This shows that you've never seen that fight. Buster got up in time to beat Mehran's count. That is all he had to do. If Mehran's would have started his count exactly when Buster hit the ground, Buster would have gotten up on time as well. Buster administered one of the worst beat downs ever in that fight. With the exception of taking that well-placed uppercut in the 8th round, he dominated Tyson from start to finish. Also, it should be obvious to everyone who has seen the fights that Tyson was going to lose to Evander whenever they fought. Evander was simply the better fighter.

yeah he got up to beat the count but mehran didn't count right and took 2 long. tyson underestimated douglas and paid the price but he should of won.

[NachoMan]

yeah he got up to beat the count but mehran didn't count right and took 2 long. tyson underestimated douglas and paid the price but he should of won.

It doesn't matter if the ref takes ten minutes to complete his count. The downed fighter doesn't need to be up within ten seconds as you seem to think; he only has to beat the ref's count. Buster got dropped with a great shot, but he was only slightly fazed, and he had no problem getting up. He won virtually every minute of the the ten rounds that they fought, so I find it odd that you insist that Tyson should have won.

Btw, given that the ref frequently has to make sure that the other fighter goes to a neutral corner, I wonder how many refs actually start their count the instant a fighter hits the ground.