Did Buster Douglas Really Beat Mike Tyson??

[butterfly1964]

chin department i think there the same to be honest with ya. the remind me of the same ppl

nah. a washed-up ali walked through prime shavers punches, but a past prime shavers floored prime holmes with one punch.

[Yogi]

holmes could win, but he doesn't have quite the chin or speed that ali had, so i don't know.

I'll agree with you when you say that Holmes didn't quite have the chin of Ali, Butterfly, but it's close to enough to say that the difference is pretty minor...But I don't agree with you on the speed of the two fighters, as I actually think that the best version of Holmes had about the same footspeed as the Ali that fought Foreman (Holmes could also fight on his toes for about twice as long as the 70's Ali, who rarely did it for more than a few rounds at a time) and I also think that Holmes had quicker & snappier punches than that version of Ali (especially the jab!).

I made that assessment yesterday after watching the first few rounds of Ali/Foreman followed by watching Holmes/Shavers II.

P.S. Holy mother, did an angry Holmes ever **** splat Leon Spinks in their fight, though!

[Heckler]

holmes could win, but he doesn't have quite the chin or speed that ali had, so i don't know.

I dont think Holmes would beat Foreman. He had as good a jaw as Ali, but i dont think he was adapatable as Ali nor could he absorb the same level of punishment.. the accumlative effect would eventually drop him. In the early seventies i think Ali's handspeed was better then any version of Larry, although Larry had the better jab. Put a prime holmes in Ali's position in 74' and i think he crumbles, you can't outbox an opponent when you're on the ropes. Larry had good footwork but not the fluid, lateral, fleet-footed movement which Ali implemented pre-layoff that could possibly offset Foremans ability to cut-off the ring. I think its Ali's intangible qualities mostly that create the difference between him and Holmes.

[smasher]

I'll agree with you when you say that Holmes didn't quite have the chin of Ali, Butterfly, but it's close to enough to say that the difference is pretty minor...But I don't agree with you on the speed of the two fighters, as I actually think that the best version of Holmes had about the same footspeed as the Ali that fought Foreman (Holmes could also fight on his toes for about twice as long as the 70's Ali, who rarely did it for more than a few rounds at a time) and I also think that Holmes had quicker & snappier punches than that version of Ali (especially the jab!)

Holmes was similar to Ali but VERY different in two critical departments which I believe would spell his downfall in a fight against prime Foreman.

1) When Holmes was hurt his survival instinct was to stand and trade. Weaver, Shavers, Snipes, Witherspoon hurt Holmes but Larry didn't hold clinch, hold or cover up, he punched back. Tyson KO'd Holmes with a hook because when Larry was wobbling all over the ring he still tried to load a right uppercut which got caught up in the ropes. In Holmes autobiography he admitted to getting mad when hurt and wanting to fight back. Joe Frazier had the same instinct. Ali did not.

2) Holmes was like a deer in the headlights when backed to the ropes. Old Larry adjusted his fighting style after launching a comeback after the Tyson loss and learned how to conserve energy by fighting off the ropes. Prime Larry wanted nothing to do with the ropes and would scamper to get off as quickly as possible. Larry was plainly not near as relaxed, comfortable nor expeienced as Ali fighting off the ropes. A death sentance if Foreman cuts off the ring on Larry.

[K-DOGG]

Holmes was similar to Ali but VERY different in two critical departments which I believe would spell his downfall in a fight against prime Foreman.

1) When Holmes was hurt his survival instinct was to stand and trade. Weaver, Shavers, Snipes, Witherspoon hurt Holmes but Larry didn't hold clinch, hold or cover up, he punched back. Tyson KO'd Holmes with a hook because when Larry was wobbling all over the ring he still tried to load a right uppercut which got caught up in the ropes. In Holmes autobiography he admitted to getting mad when hurt and wanting to fight back. Joe Frazier had the same instinct. Ali did not.

2) Holmes was like a deer in the headlights when backed to the ropes. Old Larry adjusted his fighting style after launching a comeback after the Tyson loss and learned how to conserve energy by fighting off the ropes. Prime Larry wanted nothing to do with the ropes and would scamper to get off as quickly as possible. Larry was plainly not near as relaxed, comfortable nor expeienced as Ali fighting off the ropes. A death sentance if Foreman cuts off the ring on Larry.

Know you weren't posting to me; but your analysis of Holmes-Foreman caught my attention and I just wanted to give you your props. I've never thought about the aspects of Holmes personality in regards to this ficticious match up. Quite honestly, I don't know if I'm sold on the notion just yet; but wanted to drop you a line of kudos for intuitive thinking.

Peace.

[the traveler]

Foreman was not that slow. He looked slow when he was tired and at times when he was throwing caculated punches. But if you watch the Frazier fight, his punches were not slow in that fight. He wasn't as slow as many like to think.

[Yogi]

I dont think Holmes would beat Foreman. He had as good a jaw as Ali, but i dont think he was adapatable as Ali nor could he absorb the same level of punishment.. the accumlative effect would eventually drop him. In the early seventies i think Ali's handspeed was better then any version of Larry, although Larry had the better jab. Put a prime holmes in Ali's position in 74' and i think he crumbles, you can't outbox an opponent when you're on the ropes. Larry had good footwork but not the fluid, lateral, fleet-footed movement which Ali implemented pre-layoff that could possibly offset Foremans ability to cut-off the ring. I think its Ali's intangible qualities mostly that create the difference between him and Holmes.

Heckler, no offense mate...but you must be watching either Ali/Foreman or Holmes/Shavers with your eyes crossed, because the difference in handspeed, quickness, snappiness, etc., is quite noticable between Holmes & that version of Ali, and it is Holmes who has the clear advantage in that department.

Oh, and I don't think Holmes would be in Ali's position for much of the fight against Foreman...

You see, unlike Ali who, when off the ropes, basically threw a bunch of pitty-pat arm punches against Foreman with not all that many jabs in there, Holmes would be SNAPPING his jab whenever Foreman got within range and would also follow that occasionally with a SNAPPING & somewhat powerful right hand behind it...Watch Foreman against other guys who threw better punches than Ali, then again watch him versus Ali, and I think it's quite clear that Foreman only attacked Ali so aggressively in that fight because there was basically nothing coming back at him that could hurt him. He could walk right threw Ali's punches without consequence and Ali didn't throw that many jabs in that fight when off the ropes, which is something Holmes relied on HEAVILY...so many instances in the early rounds where Ali could've reached out and landed a jab, but chose not to. Foreman would find it MUCH more difficult putting that type of aggressive pressure on Holmes with that hard jab sticking him in the face whenever George gets in range for it...which is exactly what would happen and there's just no way Foreman would be able to put the pressure on Holmes like he did Ali because of it (and Holmes' right hand).

And Holmes footwork was just fine, thank you very much, as he did show plenty of lateral movement in his prime and his feet were about as fast as Ali's were during the Foreman fight...And as I said earlier, Holmes had the proven ability to use his footwork for a much longer period of time that could that version of Ali, as shown in the Shavers rematch when he stuck & moved for nearly the whole eleven rounds of the fight.

[butterfly1964]

Heckler, no offense mate...but you must be watching either Ali/Foreman or Holmes/Shavers with your eyes crossed, because the difference in handspeed, quickness, snappiness, etc., is quite noticable between Holmes & that version of Ali, and it is Holmes who has the clear advantage in that department.

Oh, and I don't think Holmes would be in Ali's position for much of the fight against Foreman...

You see, unlike Ali who, when off the ropes, basically threw a bunch of pitty-pat arm punches against Foreman with not all that many jabs in there, Holmes would be SNAPPING his jab whenever Foreman got within range and would also follow that occasionally with a SNAPPING & somewhat powerful right hand behind it...Watch Foreman against other guys who threw better punches than Ali, then again watch him versus Ali, and I think it's quite clear that Foreman only attacked Ali so aggressively in that fight because there was basically nothing coming back at him that could hurt him. He could walk right threw Ali's punches without consequence and Ali didn't throw that many jabs in that fight when off the ropes, which is something Holmes relied on HEAVILY...so many instances in the early rounds where Ali could've reached out and landed a jab, but chose not to. Foreman would find it MUCH more difficult putting that type of aggressive pressure on Holmes with that hard jab sticking him in the face whenever George gets in range for it...which is exactly what would happen and there's just no way Foreman would be able to put the pressure on Holmes like he did Ali because of it (and Holmes' right hand).

And Holmes footwork was just fine, thank you very much, as he did show plenty of lateral movement in his prime and his feet were about as fast as Ali's were during the Foreman fight...And as I said earlier, Holmes had the proven ability to use his footwork for a much longer period of time that could that version of Ali, as shown in the Shavers rematch when he stuck & moved for nearly the whole eleven rounds of the fight.

i disagree, yogi. ali rocked foreman's head back continuously in that fight when on the ropes. there had to have been some power in those punches.

[smasher]

i disagree, yogi. ali rocked foreman's head back continuously in that fight when on the ropes. there had to have been some power in those punches.

Ist Round, 3rd round, 5th round....

[Yogi]

Holmes was similar to Ali but VERY different in two critical departments which I believe would spell his downfall in a fight against prime Foreman.

1) When Holmes was hurt his survival instinct was to stand and trade. Weaver, Shavers, Snipes, Witherspoon hurt Holmes but Larry didn't hold clinch, hold or cover up, he punched back. Tyson KO'd Holmes with a hook because when Larry was wobbling all over the ring he still tried to load a right uppercut which got caught up in the ropes. In Holmes autobiography he admitted to getting mad when hurt and wanting to fight back. Joe Frazier had the same instinct. Ali did not.

2) Holmes was like a deer in the headlights when backed to the ropes. Old Larry adjusted his fighting style after launching a comeback after the Tyson loss and learned how to conserve energy by fighting off the ropes. Prime Larry wanted nothing to do with the ropes and would scamper to get off as quickly as possible. Larry was plainly not near as relaxed, comfortable nor expeienced as Ali fighting off the ropes. A death sentance if Foreman cuts off the ring on Larry.

1. I haven't seen Holmes vs. Witherspoon or Snipes as of late, but I have seen his fights with Shavers and Weaver recently enough to know that Holmes did clinch Shavers immediately after the knockdown, and once the clinch was broken by ref, tried using his legs for a period of time, as he avoided a couple of big bombs from Shavers...Holmes didn't even throw a single punch until about 15 seconds after the ref resumed the action, and even then it was only a few little taps (right hand, couple of jabs) before Holmes again grabbed Shavers in a clinch.

As far as the fight with Weaver went...With ten or eleven seconds to go in the 10th round Weaver caught Holmes with a sneaky inside right hand which did buckle Larry's legs, but Holmes immediately went back to the ropes, covered up, avoided a few shots from Weaver while sliding himself into the corner, and it was then at the bell when Holmes finally threw a couple shots back at Weaver...But judging by the way he threw those couple of punches and especially by the way he had walked back to his corner, I thought Holmes was clear headed by that point in time and had recovered a bunch of his senses from a shot that didn't appear to hurt him all that bad (he did stagger noticably when Weaver landed it, though)

2. Again, the fight with Weaver doesn't show Holmes was "scared" of fighting on the ropes, because he spent more than a little bit of time there in that fight and seemed comfortable enough in doing so...In fact there was even a couple of instances when Holmes backed himself to the ropes on purpose, including one VERY noticable time around the 4th or 5th round, when Holmes looked off to the side to find the ropes, and then positioned himself there (wasn't hurt or anything either).

Versus Shavers he did show a reluctance to fight on the ropes, or more accurately...an ability to get off the ropes by using quick side movement in escaping that position. But even when Shavers didn't give him any room to slip out from the ropes, Holmes was quick to tie Shavers up inside and he did that quite often throughout the fight.

Also, see my previous post to Heckler in regards to the question of how much time Holmes would even be on the ropes versus Foreman, which I don't think is NEARLY as much as you others believe...But whether it be by slipping away or tying up, I think Holmes would be plenty capable of proteting himself during those odd occasions Foreman does get him in that position.