This one is still going on, I had my original hip when this thread started!
Agree with both these statements but in the interests of balance I would say that Dokes long winning streak was also club fighters & journeymen too. I think if we were grading opponents Tucker and Dokes at that time pretty much mirrored each other.
My memory of this was that Bowe had a real personal antipathy to Mercer and Mercer (a very credible opponent) was the fighter he wanted but Mercer being Mercer managed to lose to Fergusan. I can only assume that Fergusan was a tune up for Mercer because on the best day Fergusan ever had he was an "opponent". So basically Mercer blew it and Fergusan got himself a shot, it would be a stretch though to call him a credible HW contender.
Ish. To be fair to Ruddock those 2 losses were against a reasonable version of Tyson I agree with you that those Tyson fights took more out of Ruddock than was realised at the time of the Lewis fight but Ruddock was a credible opponent for an eliminator. Lewis was the betting favourite but as I recall the odds were very skinny on either fighter and it was pretty much a pick em fight as far as the bookies were concerned. Maybe "home" advantage tipped the odds to Lewis.
Lot of people thought Holy was shot after his loss to Moorer which was just after he beat Bowe which is ranked by many as his best win which probably shows that Holy like Mercer can blow hot and cold. Wouldn't agree that Tyson was completely shot but he certainly wasn't the fighter he was pre prison. That said he had just taken 2 titles and for many he was "back" Tyson-Holy were credible fights and good wins for Holyfield.
Think the main problem with this thread is not facts but the way facts are interpreted to be honest which then brings it back to opinion.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion though but no one has the monopoly on facts.
As far as your age theory goes my friend.....I've seen you speak authoritatively on Jack Dempsey yet you weren't even born when he was fighting. Why is it ok for us to accept your opinion but not those of others who may or may not have been alive during the period we're talking about now?
The only thing that I would say in Sonny's defence re the age theory is that it does sometimes help being around in an era. Many read books which are often written with hindsight but if you were around you remember things like Clay being quite lightly viewed pre Liston and how unbeatable Liston and Foreman were seen at that time. I often do see things like "the common view was...." and think well that's not how I remember it!
Wouldn't argue that Sonny's memory is selective but I guess most of us could put our hands up to that.
The curse of old age is I can remember details like what I had to eat after or who I was with at a certain fight but not a single detail of the fight
The only thing that I would say in Sonny's defence re the age theory is that it does sometimes help being around in an era. Many read books which are often written with hindsight but if you were around you remember things like Clay being quite lightly viewed pre Liston and how unbeatable Liston and Foreman were seen at that time. I often do see things like "the common view was...." and think well that's not how I remember it!
Wouldn't argue that Sonny's memory is selective but I guess most of us could put our hands up to that.
The curse of old age is I can remember details like what I had to eat after or who I was with at a certain fight but not a single detail of the fight
I remember these things very well. I wish I still had my collection of boxing Mags (Ring, KO, etc.) because they would shed light on the atmosphere of the time.
I remember these things very well. I wish I still had my collection of boxing Mags (Ring, KO, etc.) because they would shed light on the atmosphere of the time.
Certainly not questioning your memory my friend I'm just saying that sometimes it helps to be around to know the vibe of the time, James Dean syndrome I call it.
I read now that James Dean was a huge movie star but truth was I think when he died he'd only had one film released. Not saying he wasn't good or anything but at the time he died not that many of joe public could have picked him out in a line up.
Brando however was very popular and bit like Elvis it is hard now to get accross how much of an impact he had.
You'll see it yourself with people/events of your era when you read about them in 30 years, trust me on this
How many times are you going to repost this pathetic interview with an obviously biased (and punch drunk) participant? We have to be in double figures already.
How many times are you going to repost this pathetic interview with an obviously biased (and punch drunk) participant? We have to be in double figures already.
How many times are you going to repost this pathetic interview with an obviously biased (and punch drunk) participant? We have to be in double figures already.
that interview is what's known as "Evidence" yet throughout this thread all evidence has been rubbish by yourself, Joseph & Co...
Bowe is a liar, pathetic, punch-drunk etc
Eddie Futch is a liar and would say that etc
That reporter is the worst reporter in the USA etc.
Yet yourself, Joseph & Co have not produced a single shred of evidence to back up your side of the argument.. it is not and never has been a case of proving you wrong, it has been a case of showing you that it unfolded in a different way to how you are expressing it, with all these links as evidence.
Why is it you continually ignore the 90/10 offer as if it never happened? The bottom line in this thread is EXACTLY what I said it was, that Lewis-Bowe was the biggest fight to be made that year and Bowe ducked it.
As far as your age theory goes my friend.....I've seen you speak authoritatively on Jack Dempsey yet you weren't even born when he was fighting. Why is it ok for us to accept your opinion but not those of others who may or may not have been alive during the period we're talking about now?
90/10 was the opening offer to Lewis it was the raised to 80/20 by the HBO offer and finally raised to 75/25 like Bowe claims in the video, there is also newspaper articles of Frank Moloney claiming they refused 75/25.
what i speak on Jack Dempsey i would not call "authoritative" it is only what i have read and watched, yet on Lennox Lewis i have seen him fight live on several occasions including his fights with Ruddock & McCall which gives me a different insight into him that a younger fan who was only a child at the time of those events.. There is no person alive in our days who can speak authoritatively on Jack Dempsey as his career started 100yrs ago so we have to go by researchers and historians and go by their views with myself being partial to the views of IBHOF trainer Ray Arcel who claimed Jack Dempsey was the greatest fighter who ever lived.
that interview is what's known as "Evidence" yet throughout this thread all evidence has been rubbish by yourself, Joseph & Co...
Bowe is a liar, pathetic, punch-drunk etc
Eddie Futch is a liar and would say that etc
That reporter is the worst reporter in the USA etc.
Yet yourself, Joseph & Co have not produced a single shred of evidence to back up your side of the argument.. it is not and never has been a case of proving you wrong, it has been a case of showing you that it unfolded in a different way to how you are expressing it, with all these links as evidence.
None of this is true. What has been said is that they are biased in their own one sided accounts, especially 16 years after the fact. I have offered proof of a 90/10 split and of Lewis team no longer trusting Bowe and Rock Newman. And while I don't have the evidence anymore I know Ring and KO magazines from that particular window in time support almost everything I have said.
With all due respect Sonny, you want everyone to just accept what you offer while you ignore what has been offered in rebuttal. That doesn't make someone more knowledgeable on the subject, only more stubborn.
90/10 was the opening offer to Lewis it was the raised to 80/20 by the HBO offer and finally raised to 75/25 like Bowe claims in the video, there is also newspaper articles of Frank Moloney claiming they refused 75/25.
Now you're admitting a 90/10 offer.Isn't it than reasonable Lewis and Maloney no longer trusted Newman and Bowe to do business with after such a low ball attempt to avoid a fight?
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