Sam Langford said Dempsey was the greatest fighter he ever seen

[RubenSonny]

I don't hold it against Dempsy for not defeating a black fighter. Back then things were different. If in the future boxing were to be dominated by the chinese, which could happen due to their huge population would you hold it against Robinson or Calazage for never fighting Chinese?

Thats not a good comparison at all since there were no Chinese contenders in Robinson or Calzaghes reign. Dempsey appeared to draw the colour line when there were some top black boxers, he certainly avoided Harry Wills.

[Great John L]

1. Jack Dempsey has never defeated an ATG(Tunney)

2. Jack Dempsey has never defeated a single black fighter (Wills, Johnson, the entire race)

So to say he would beat all ATGs, even the ones who happen to be black is quite a leap. I respect the opinions of the writers and trainers of the day who claim Dempsey would beat WIlls, but writers and trainers also said that Tyson would beat Holyfield, and that Oscar would beat Pacquiao.... even the most informed historians can be dead-wrong on a pick. This is why they are writers/historians and not billionaires in Vegas.

As far as Dempsey sparring with blacks? I'll quote you....



Couldn't have said it better myself.

There is a big difference between simply outspeeding and avoiding an opponent like Greb did to Jack, and getting mauled and knocked down with broken ribs/bones like Dempsey did to Godfrey and the other black fighters Wills had to struggle with. Wills was too slow to beat Jack, Langford even said so. Langford couldn't even handle Fulton, so to act like Jack was afraid of him is totally ridiculous. As for the quote of Dempsey saying Sam would kill him, he was speaking of when his manager John Reisler tried to match Jack with Langford in 1916. Jack said the same about Fulton and several other name fighters. He wasn't ready for them. Two years later he KO's Fulton in 18 seconds and Morris in 14. He would have done the same to Langford. So the whole affair of that quote being used agaisnt Jack is null and void. What's also incorrect is calling Miske "a dying man". Miske was hardly dying. He didn't die till years later, had a very successful record after his Dempsey fight, and was whipped several times by Jack prior to his being champ. You are being too critical. "Dempsey never beat an ATG". How could Dempsey beat an ATG when none were around? Dempsey did beat some ATGs. Battling Levinsky, Sharkey, Carpentier, Willard to a lesser extent, he would have beaten Gene Tunney in Long Count if he went back right away to his corner, he beat up the top blacks in sparring, he also beat very good fighters like Gibbons, Brennan, Miske, Fulton, and Morris, and Gunboat Smith, all who were the top fighters of the day.
Also McCoy, Drempsey didn't pick Gibbons as his opponent. The promoters, Sam Sampson and the mayer of Shelby picked Gibbons and Dempsey for the title fight because both were popular and could supposedly draw a crowd. Gibbons was not selected by Dempsey.

[Holtol]

Thats not a good comparison at all since there were no Chinese contenders in Robinson or Calzaghes reign. Dempsey appeared to draw the colour line when there were some top black boxers, he certainly avoided Harry Wills.

Chinese could be good boxers though , and they could likely dominate the sport as well as anyone with their vast population. But many of them don't have a chance to be great boxers because many of them are just poor farmers. Like many blacks were not given a chance back then.

Many Chinese pesents would trade their life to make millions boxing. Its just that they are not given the opportunity.

[Kid McCoy]

What's also incorrect is calling Miske "a dying man". Miske was hardly dying. He didn't die till years later, had a very successful record after his Dempsey fight, and was whipped several times by Jack prior to his being champ.

Miske was terminally ill with Bright's disease. He actually retired because of it, but made a comeback against doctors' advice because he needed the money. It wasn't exactly a secret that he was a sick (actually, dying) man. Dempsey himself later said the fight was just to give Miske a payday for his family.

As to Miske's post-Dempsey record, it was mostly against journeyman fighters and guys as past prime as he was. Several, such as Brennan, were suspected of going easy on him and you could hardly blame them. His only win against a prime contender was Gibbons on a DQ after losing every round, which Gibbons avenged with a wide decision a couple of months later.

[RubenSonny]

Chinese could be good boxers though , and they could likely dominate the sport as well as anyone with their vast population. But many of them don't have a chance to be great boxers because many of them are just poor farmers. Like many blacks were not given a chance back then.

Many Chinese pesents would trade their life to make millions boxing. Its just that they are not given the opportunity.

This is just not worth responding to.

[Holtol]

This is just not worth responding to.

I just think that there are many people who are not given opportunities in life. Sure back then there were good black boxers who were not given opportunities but at least they learned to box. Some people do not even have that privilege . China is develpoping more of a sports program so I think one day they could have the best boxers. And 40 years from now I am not going to say "well Ali or Marciano were not that good because they did not fight the Chinese."

[JAB5239]

Thats not a good comparison at all since there were no Chinese contenders in Robinson or Calzaghes reign. Dempsey appeared to draw the colour line when there were some top black boxers, he certainly avoided Harry Wills.

Wills had to wait, no argument there. But Dempsey signed twice to fight Wills only to have the contest vetoed by higher powers.

[Joeyzagz]

. You are being too critical. "Dempsey never beat an ATG". How could Dempsey beat an ATG when none were around? Dempsey did beat some ATGs. Battling Levinsky, Sharkey, Carpentier, Willard to a lesser extent, he would have beaten Gene Tunney in Long Count if he went back right away to his corner,.

Levinsky, Sharkey and Carpentier, are NOT greats. ATGs are an elite-class of only 20 or so fighters and most boxers only meet 1 or 2 during their lifetime. Of the 3 ATGs that existed in Dempsey's era, he only fought Tunney and failed!

To say Dempsey wouldve beaten Wills or any of the other top contenders is speculation. A lot of informed historians thought Dempsey would beat Tunney and look what happened there.

Dempsey is nothing more than the Mike Tyson of the 1920's. Exciting fighter to watch, but cant win when paired against another ELITE boxer.

[Scott9945]

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Wills had to wait, no argument there. But Dempsey signed twice to fight Wills only to have the contest vetoed by higher powers.

Dempsey didn't really duck Wills any more than Babe Ruth ducked black pitchers. We have to accept that it was a much different time in America. As great as he was, Jack Johnson didn't really do other black fighters any favors for the next decade.

[sonnyboyx2]

Levinsky, Sharkey and Carpentier, are NOT greats. ATGs are an elite-class of only 20 or so fighters and most boxers only meet 1 or 2 during their lifetime. Of the 3 ATGs that existed in Dempsey's era, he only fought Tunney and failed!

To say Dempsey wouldve beaten Wills or any of the other top contenders is speculation. A lot of informed historians thought Dempsey would beat Tunney and look what happened there.

Dempsey is nothing more than the Mike Tyson of the 1920's. Exciting fighter to watch, but cant win when paired against another ELITE boxer.

is there any fighter in boxing history with the exception of Calzaghe & Lewis who you have not trashed...