Mike Tyson vs Joe Louis

[ROSS CALIFORNIA]

Show me where a person with a good jab ever consistently knocked Tyson's neck back? This is what I'm talking about with you - you never know what you're talking about.

The jab was extremely difficult to land on Tyson when he had head movement in his prime. Look at any fight where he fought guys who had the best jabs in the division at the time - Biggs, Holmes, Pinklon Thomas, Mike Spinks, Carl Williams. These guys were all good "boxers" with fantastic jabs, yet when they tried to keep him away with the jab while he was moving inside, he simple slipped it and came up with a blazing hook to end the fight, as is what happened with Holmes and more specifically when he ended the fight with Carl Williams.

Tyson was an expert at timing punches and always got out of the way. I'm not hugging, I'm just stating simple facts that are extremely easy to see on film, but you wouldn't know anything about that as you do not know anything about boxing and I honestly believe you don't even watch complete fights and if you do you are zoned out or something.

Watch him slip this jab in the blink of an eye. Nobody could slip a jab like Tyson, which is why that is called "The best punch in boxing" but when he was at his best nobody could land it on him.



Cus knew that if Tyson could not learn to slip jabs he would never have success being such a small guy in the HW division, which is why his head movement and evasive nature was always a stressed and core part of his routine.

Watch Pinklon Thomas try to keep him away with the jab, but it's like another dog pawing away a a pit bull.

Thomas gave Tyson problems with the jab early on but I agree Tyson's head movement made it difficult for that jab to land when he used it. He got lazy at times and didn't use his head movement. I think he burned himself a bit after those first two rounds with Thomas and decided to take a little break but still applied his pressure and made Thomas fight more than what was his normal pace. By the 6th round, Thomas tired himself out trying to hold off Tyson and the rest was history. At least that's how I see it.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

I've not typically been as critical as some of Tyson's harder detractors regarding that particular fight, but a faded Thomas, while a very competent jabber, is a far, far cry from the young Louis.

Of course, being fair, most of Louis' opposition, in more areas than not, were Tyson's inferior, too.

[Holtol]

I have been looking at more Louis video here is some clear footage of ko highlights. There are many 1 punch ko's and I like the 5 punch combination at about 1:15 and the hard short fast right at about 2:15.

[CarlosG815]

James Buster Douglas.

Joe Louis was one of the "best" boxers and with his ability to adapt to foes could probably find a way to beat Tyson but, it may take 4-5 rounds which is why Tyson MUST take him out before then.
I highly doubt Spinks is a good example as he completely froze and was beaten before it started and Holmes was 39 and past his prime.

As I said in my post he was not the same fighter after Rooney and it is very obvious in his fights post Spinks. He looked bad against Bruno and terrible against Douglas. He did eat Douglas jab all night but moreso it was the overhand rights that he ate all night that really destroyed him.

Do you disagree that he was lacking the head movement he had displayed from 85-88 on the night he fought Douglas? Or do you believe that he moved the same way?

I'm tired of your excuses, "Holmes was past prime" yet he went on to win 20 fights, get 3 title shots only to lose by decision, and beat an undefeated Ray Mercer. He was never knocked out in his career but to Tyson.

Spinks may have been afraid but did it really matter? It was more a style mismatch that Spinks never had a chance than it was he was "froze with fear." I do agree he was afraid, but I don't think it would have made a difference if he were confident.

[SBleeder]

I'm tired of your excuses, "Holmes was past prime" yet he went on to win 20 fights, get 3 title shots only to lose by decision, and beat an undefeated Ray Mercer. He was never knocked out in his career but to Tyson.

After losing to Douglas, Tyson won 13 fights, the World Championship, and knocked out undefeated Buster Mathis Jr.

[CarlosG815]

After losing to Douglas, Tyson won 13 fights, the World Championship, and knocked out undefeated Buster Mathis Jr.

Yes, he was not as good as he was before but he was still a top contender and one of the best fighters of the 90's, what is your point?

[Wild Blue Yonda]

Personally, I have never accepted that Tyson was, "past his prime," when he fought Douglas. That is completely revisionist, no one breathed a word of it at the time, & the evidence for that standpoint is pretty shaky.

I don't have any qualms with someone stating Tyson was below par for his fight with Douglas, but past his best? That's stretching it beyond reason to protect his image.

[Greatest1942]

Yes, he was not as good as he was before but he was still a top contender and one of the best fighters of the 90's, what is your point?

Look fact is Tyson never faced a great Jabber period.We don't know how well will he respond to Louis's heavy accurate jab. Which Marciano later on said was like a hammer. Louis's jab is an all time great one, and no matter how good your head movement is , you are gonna get hurt by it atleast to some degree.Tyson might not be bought to Submission by it but he will be hurt to an extent surely. Even an old washed up Louis was good enough to hurt Ezzard Charles with it.

Did Tyson have the physical prowess to upset Louis? Lord he did have that. His mental? no sorry he didn't. See Louis like Tyson lost his trainer. But against Conn, later against Walcott he showed the intangibles to come out of great stylistic disadvantage and win. Tyson never showed that charecter. Against two heavy weights who are legitimate greats, your intangibles play a part. Is it all ?No but I will say advatage Louis

Tyson had great head movement, but Joe louis was a great boxer inside and outside. If he couldn't hurt Tyson with the jab he will hurt Tyson later on inside. Could Tyson knock down Louis hell yea. KO not so easy. Joe's recuperative abilties were awesome.He was never ever stopped within 6. Even when he was well past his prime and a shadow of his old shelf. Who did Tyson KO past 6th? Louis came back from some severe beatings multiple times to stop his opponent.Tyson? Pass.(Yea Yea Ruddock I know, just measure up with Louis's here). If the fight goes 15th I don't see Tyson decisioning Louis. Louis will pile it on slowly as Tyson fades in the later rounds of a 15 rounder. And one more it was not only without Ronney Tyson showed lack of head movement, some fans of his make it sound that Rooney was the fairy who moved his head everytime here's a quote :-
"His techniques in the Spinks fight were not high level. If Cus D'Amato had watched the fight he would have commented that there was no slipping, no bobbing, no weaving, the trademarks of the D'Amato system." - Steve Lott , Tyson's cornerman.


As good as Tyson was with his head movements Joe was fast enough with his hands to catch him. I have seen plenty of Mike while he started of quick and good with plenty of head movement, once his opponent caught him, he never showed that great Head movement again. Buster Douglas who was never as great a jabber as Louis kept him outside with jabs. So did a faded Thomas, and they were not even close to Louis. Blame it on his separation with Rooney, blame it on Cuss's death Tyson when faced with serious adversary forgot to move his head and traded. Holyfield, Douglas etc etc.I can't go with what he did in in 1985-86 why here's why

1)In 1985 Tyson went 15-0 with 15 KO's. Only one opponent would retire with a winning record (6-1). Not one of these 15 opponents ever beat a world class opponent and they accounted for 154 KO losses. I don't call this reliable competition

2)In 1986 ? Mitch Green is the only fighter he faces who does not have multiple Ko losses on his record. He finished the fight with Mike.

Later Tyson KO'd Holmes, yea, Spinks yea. Great. Did I see enough to let me think that Tyson would have beat Louis? No. I sincerely believe when two greats fight its skills, heart, grit and style.Skills cancel out, heart Louis, grit Louis, style? tyson would be coming to Louis, so it won't be like Louis will be chasing his fast feet around...I don't see either has an advantage here, but it makes for a very exciting match.


Tyson could have been the biggest thing in boxing, but he never developed the intangibles or patience to be it. I am not one of those who cannot ignore who he beat, when he was in his supposed prime(85-86-87) to say he will beat greats like Louis or Ali. Even a faded Louis an old shell beat great like Walcott..Ali out of his prime beat Foreman..Tyson out of his prime lost to every great he faced and lost to journeymen. Those never did that.

[r.burgundy]

Personally, I have never accepted that Tyson was, "past his prime," when he fought Douglas. That is completely revisionist, no one breathed a word of it at the time, & the evidence for that standpoint is pretty shaky.

I don't have any qualms with someone stating Tyson was below par for his fight with Douglas, but past his best? That's stretching it beyond reason to protect his image.

prime usually refers to your physical state.so physically he wasnt past it,but its well documented he was barely training in tokyo,and his corner work in that fight was the worst ive ever seen.they actually had a rubber glove with water on his head trying to get swelling down.so physically he was prime,but mentally he was long gone

[r.burgundy]

Look fact is Tyson never faced a great Jabber period.We don't know how well will he respond to Louis's heavy accurate jab. Which Marciano later on said was like a hammer. Louis's jab is an all time great one, and no matter how good your head movement is , you are gonna get hurt by it atleast to some degree.Tyson might not be bought to Submission by it but he will be hurt to an extent surely. Even an old washed up Louis was good enough to hurt Ezzard Charles with it.

Did Tyson have the physical prowess to upset Louis? Lord he did have that. His mental? no sorry he didn't. See Louis like Tyson lost his trainer. But against Conn, later against Walcott he showed the intangibles to come out of great stylistic disadvantage and win. Tyson never showed that charecter. Against two heavy weights who are legitimate greats, your intangibles play a part. Is it all ?No but I will say advatage Louis

Tyson had great head movement, but Joe louis was a great boxer inside and outside. If he couldn't hurt Tyson with the jab he will hurt Tyson later on inside. Could Tyson knock down Louis hell yea. KO not so easy. Joe's recuperative abilties were awesome.He was never ever stopped within 6. Even when he was well past his prime and a shadow of his old shelf. Who did Tyson KO past 6th? Louis came back from some severe beatings multiple times to stop his opponent.Tyson? Pass.(Yea Yea Ruddock I know, just measure up with Louis's here). If the fight goes 15th I don't see Tyson decisioning Louis. Louis will pile it on slowly as Tyson fades in the later rounds of a 15 rounder. And one more it was not only without Ronney Tyson showed lack of head movement, some fans of his make it sound that Rooney was the fairy who moved his head everytime here's a quote :-
"His techniques in the Spinks fight were not high level. If Cus D'Amato had watched the fight he would have commented that there was no slipping, no bobbing, no weaving, the trademarks of the D'Amato system." - Steve Lott , Tyson's cornerman.


As good as Tyson was with his head movements Joe was fast enough with his hands to catch him. I have seen plenty of Mike while he started of quick and good with plenty of head movement, once his opponent caught him, he never showed that great Head movement again. Buster Douglas who was never as great a jabber as Louis kept him outside with jabs. So did a faded Thomas, and they were not even close to Louis. Blame it on his separation with Rooney, blame it on Cuss's death Tyson when faced with serious adversary forgot to move his head and traded. Holyfield, Douglas etc etc.I can't go with what he did in in 1985-86 why here's why

1)In 1985 Tyson went 15-0 with 15 KO's. Only one opponent would retire with a winning record (6-1). Not one of these 15 opponents ever beat a world class opponent and they accounted for 154 KO losses. I don't call this reliable competition

2)In 1986 ? Mitch Green is the only fighter he faces who does not have multiple Ko losses on his record. He finished the fight with Mike.

Later Tyson KO'd Holmes, yea, Spinks yea. Great. Did I see enough to let me think that Tyson would have beat Louis? No. I sincerely believe when two greats fight its skills, heart, grit and style.Skills cancel out, heart Louis, grit Louis, style? tyson would be coming to Louis, so it won't be like Louis will be chasing his fast feet around...I don't see either has an advantage here, but it makes for a very exciting match.


Tyson could have been the biggest thing in boxing, but he never developed the intangibles or patience to be it. I am not one of those who cannot ignore who he beat, when he was in his supposed prime(85-86-87) to say he will beat greats like Louis or Ali. Even a faded Louis an old shell beat great like Walcott..Ali out of his prime beat Foreman..Tyson out of his prime lost to every great he faced and lost to journeymen. Those never did that.

you can talk all you want about tyson never fought this type,or didnt have this or that,but 1 crucial area he clearly has louis beat in was the chin.louis has been ko'd by much lesser than mike and been down from single punches.mike in his prime and even afterwards never came close to being stopped by a single punch.gallento,a joke of a fighter almost ko'd louis.stylistically this is a terrible fight for joe