How Many Gift Decisions Was Muhammad Ali Given in his Career?

[Sugarj]

Mate if you disagree about Shavers I can not argue much, as I myself said, it was no robbery or Gift. Gift was the Young and Norton for me. Yeah a draw would have been nice for me, but I won't rant about it.

Ernie was a nice chap. I am sure Ali's jab wasa bit faster too than Holmes. But personally I believe Holmes jab was better because it was harder and approaching Ali's in speed. Shavers might have been put off by faster jabs though.

By the way great that you met Ernie. He is a good chap.

I think prime Ali's jab was faster than Holmes's, well......faster than anyones barring Floyd Patterson. But I think Ali's jab, whilst a shade slower than Patterson's was a touch more accurate, and the reach advantage helped too.

But in 1977/78 I thought Holmes's jab was at least as fast as that version of Ali.....but Earnie wouldn't hear of it. Ha ha

As for prime Ali's jab vs Holmes's. It is a tough call, speed advantage to Ali, power advantage to Holmes. Both fantastic punches in their respective arsenals.

[Greatest1942]

I think prime Ali's jab was faster than Holmes's, well......faster than anyones barring Floyd Patterson. But I think Ali's jab, whilst a shade slower than Patterson's was a touch more accurate, and the reach advantage helped too.

But in 1977/78 I thought Holmes's jab was at least as fast as that version of Ali.....but Earnie wouldn't hear of it. Ha ha

As for prime Ali's jab vs Holmes's. It is a tough call, speed advantage to Ali, power advantage to Holmes. Both fantastic punches in their respective arsenals.

Yeah to tell you the truth I was of the same opinion. But ernie might be right. Still I rate Holmes jab as the better one. He could really hurt you with that jab. Ali's jab was very good too.

[TBear]

As for prime Ali's jab vs Holmes's. It is a tough call, speed advantage to Ali, power advantage to Holmes. Both fantastic punches in their respective arsenals.

Exactly!!
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[Die Antwoord]

Exactly!!
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comparing Ali and Holmes jabs is like comparing Mayweather to Pacquiao. Both were excellent, but totally different. Its more personal preference. Do you like the fast and accurate or the hard and accurate jab. Hard to say, but one thing I do know is you should never take any fighter at their word over who hits hard, who was better, who is the tougher guy...anything. Fighters tend to turn into completely biased morons with no memory whatsoever when asked to evaluate other fighters they have faced in the ring. I dont listen to any of that even when it benefits fighters I like. Like Briggs talking about Vitali? I dont care. Ali talking about Shavers? I dont care. While boxers who have faced the people we discuss should have the most knowledge, they really have no clue, forget easily and say things based on what was more recent, or who they like better, or what makes them look better.

[Southpaw Stinger]

None. It's a myth propagated by ****s.

[Sugarj]

comparing Ali and Holmes jabs is like comparing Mayweather to Pacquiao. Both were excellent, but totally different. Its more personal preference. Do you like the fast and accurate or the hard and accurate jab. Hard to say, but one thing I do know is you should never take any fighter at their word over who hits hard, who was better, who is the tougher guy...anything. Fighters tend to turn into completely biased morons with no memory whatsoever when asked to evaluate other fighters they have faced in the ring. I dont listen to any of that even when it benefits fighters I like. Like Briggs talking about Vitali? I dont care. Ali talking about Shavers? I dont care. While boxers who have faced the people we discuss should have the most knowledge, they really have no clue, forget easily and say things based on what was more recent, or who they like better, or what makes them look better.

I've disagreed with you alot in the past mate, but I must admit.......I did find myself agreeing with alot of what you say here.

[Sugarj]

This is why Ali shakes, can't talk, and uses a walker now. He paid a price and didn't know when to quit. This is why I admire fighters like Marciano, Dempsey, and Tunney.

You can add Lennox Lewis to that list too.

I started noticing that things were not quite right shortly after 1975's Thrilla in Manilla. You would catch the odd vacant expression that seems to be idiosynchratic with the Parkinsons Ali of later years. Or the odd rasp in his voice that I'd never clocked at any point before that third Frazier fight.

He clearly had the syndrome before the Berbick fight and he was very hard to understand in the post fight interview.

[joseph5620]

I must admit when I saw the scores for the Foreman fight I realised one thing......if it went the distance Ali was taking that title in Africa. Foreman needed to knock him out to win from the very beginning. Its all academic now, Ali deserved his win without any help from the judges, but there could have been a real stench in Zaire that night.

As for the Young fight, it was close..........I know Young did hold his head out of the ring and everything, but theres no two ways about it.........that was the worst Ali performance to date, overweight and undermotivated. Perhaps a draw would have been more just. Ali's workrate and accuracy were very subpar.

As for Norton 2, I had it even going into the last round.........which was clearly Ali's

Norton 3: This was one of those fights where the rounds that Norton won were far clearer than the rounds Ali shaded/nicked. Sadly when I totted up my card at the end I had Ali a one point winner. Norton produced the better work overall that night, and Ali's victory had more to do with the weakness of the 10 point must system than anything else.

I did have Ali a clear winner over Shavers though. Even Earnie conceeds that Ali deserved the decision. He say this in Facing Ali, the documentary. That said, I think Ali suffered more from that fight than Ernie. It was Ali's last truely decent performance.

As for the Doug Jones fight.........a very good fight, but its more about Jones doing better than expected than him actually deserving the fight. Ali predicted a sixth round KO; when he didn't get it I suppose some saw this as a moral victory for Jones. But Ali won this fight by a good few rounds to my eyes, it wasn't even close for me.

I've always felt that way. I've watched that fight and still don't see how anybody could think Jones won it. It wasn't even that close to me. The Young and Norton fights I can understand. But calling the Jones fight a robbery or gift is ridiculous to me.

[StarshipTrooper]

You can add Lennox Lewis to that list too.

I started noticing that things were not quite right shortly after 1975's Thrilla in Manilla. You would catch the odd vacant expression that seems to be idiosynchratic with the Parkinsons Ali of later years. Or the odd rasp in his voice that I'd never clocked at any point before that third Frazier fight.

He clearly had the syndrome before the Berbick fight and he was very hard to understand in the post fight interview.

Hey Sugar? In case you missed the reference, "Bull Conner" was the racist KKK sheriff of Birmingham Alabama back in the 60s that turned the dogs and fire hoses on the civil rights demonstrators. This poster is either a racist pr1ck or someone trying to start trouble by making racist posts.

Poet

[Sugarj]

Hey Sugar? In case you missed the reference, "Bull Conner" was the racist KKK sheriff of Birmingham Alabama back in the 60s that turned the dogs and fire hoses on the civil rights demonstrators. This poster is either a racist pr1ck or someone trying to start trouble by making racist posts.

Poet

I did miss that, I didn't even clock his name! Cheers for that mate.

He'd have loved my Lennox Lewis comment then!!!!! Ha ha

I've no time for racism, it revolts me.